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Tyler Cowen had Dan Wang (author of Breakneck, originator of the 'China is run by engineers, US is run by lawyers' meme) on his podcast last week. IMO, Tyler's podcast is at it's best when he's debating rather than interviewing, part of why his year-end reviews are some of his best episodes. It's particularly interesting watching someone intelligent actually defend America and moreover champion causes that inevitably would code as lower-status to the intellectual class.
tl;dr, Tyler's views —
Massive quotes incoming. Skip ahead if you don't want to read Tyler's arguments:
And honestly, this seems to me to be the revealed preferences of most people. Europeans and Chinese who move to the US largely move to the burbs and buy the big car even while (at least the former) tut-tutting about how barbaric it all is. People, at least once they hit a certain age, want the SFH and the big yard with the fence and the space to raise their children.
On the pandemic and vaccines:
And yet. And yet! At one point we have this brief exchange:
I can buy some of Tyler's takes, and as I mentioned it's refreshing to see an actual contrarian take about the competence of America. But at some point, it just transcends a contrarian take into cope territory. Why are we complacently accepting that China is going to be the global center for auto manufacturing on top of drones and everything else? Life might be good now, but if China is just 1950s America, and 1950s America was just 19th century Britain, aren't we headed for the same stagnation and broad irrelevance of the UK today?
Maybe some of the catastrophizing about China is overwrought and some of America's apparent weaknesses are just the invisible hand of the market moving in mysterious ways, while the gleaming bridges and HSR to nowhere are albatross projects and a drag on growth. Maybe our apparent decadence and vice are really just the product of a system optimized for giving it's people a good life, while Chinese grind 996 work weeks for shit wages to stroke Xi Jinping's ego. But man, I don't want to get hit with the rare earth metals stick whenever the POTUS doesn't kowtow to the emperor. I'm still torn between whether the economists should be running the show or whether we should keep them as far away from the levers of power as possible.
Make some actual tariffs that bite and laws that promote onshoring; and if consumers don't even notice an increase in prices it ain't working. If your argument is that we can't match the Chinese in whatever way, deregulate or bring Chinese companies here so we can learn from them or do whatever it takes to compete. Instead, we just decided to sell them H200s and erode one of our few remaining advantages (maybe someone more plugged in can comment on how significant this is?).
I find this topic very irksome, for reasons that can be gleaned from some jingoistic comments below. "Breakneck" is also an annoying gimmick. They're not engineers. They've got a ton of engineers but the CPC is still heavy on lawyers and straight up apparatchiks.
China is completely non-mysterious. Any specific domain, like HSR, is pointlessly nitpicked at and debated but matters little in isolation, and the big picture is very straightforward and expressed in their official messaging. Maybe the thickest layer of obscurity is official translation. For example: «中华人民共和国». «People's Republic of China». Character by character: something like "The Middle Splendid Land's People's Common-Harmony State". That's what they intend to be.
It is a modern (as opposed to postmodern) state, with Leninist ideology, built on top of Chinese Confucian civilization, with enormous, high-IQ population, led by a man who's passed through hardship and one of the most competitive and cutthroat filters in any system ever, a product of Party-arranged marriage between two other Communist zealots. I think Xi's character is actually misunderstood and important, especially given what the Superpower Number One has got. To get a feel for it, I recommend reading this interview (1, 2) on a book about his father Xi Zhongxun (btw, he's the guy who invented Special Economic Zones among other things). An excerpt:
Basically, to understand China the easiest strategy is to stop coping, take them at their word about what they are and what they're doing, and watch as things become predictable. How cutting-edge capabilities are deployed faster and at larger scale, how air is getting cleaner, how problems just get solved (except profound structural ones no society knows how to solve – like fertility or real estate bubble, which they are deflating), how in 7 years of «slowing down» or «collapsing» they go from taking American export controls lying down to retaliating so severely that Trump is pressed to concede. How we go from «haha Huawei will die» to «please buy H200s». These are a people and a system that is very good at completing tasks. It's how a state should be. Its values may be alien, but operationally, all serious modern states were similar. Some mix of dirigisme and free market, competent leadership with skin in the game, investment into human capital, infrastructure buildout. The US was this. "Datacenter buildout" is not this. Does anyone seriously think they will have trouble building sheds with lots of cooling and grid connection. They have the world's best HVDC system, they ate several major markets in the last 5 years, their heavy machinery is penetrating German/Japanese markets already. They'll be fine.
What merits explanation is not China but the dysfunction of Western societies, the decline of civilization really.
There is a lot of a cope. But there's also a lot of reflexive anti-jingoism where America default bad. I confess, I don't know whether to trust the economists or not.
I'll read it and get back to you.
Out of curiosity, do you speak/read Mandarin?
I'm not really interested in arguing with you on the subject and I'm not even sure I disagree, but on this point that you might find amusing - the dim sum place near my house is also called 'peaceful mountain dumpling shop' (obscured for opsec reasons) and I can tell you it's anything but. I'm reminded of the Chinese copypastas from World of Warcraft:
patchwerk fat american 胖胖美国人angered hits on armored men对装甲兵的怒吼intentional pain river keeps others safe故意痛苦的河流使他人安全medics focus those who eat fists医务人员将重点放在那些吃拳头的人身上
邪恶的骑士 Evil horseriders 一起站 Stand together for falling sky 带走武器 Steal weapon 避免黑洞 Avoid pancake of darkness 圣光波 Change position often
They're funnier if you've actually played the game...
Thanks - I'll try a book about Xi and/or his father.
The point of that argument is not that China is incapable of building datacenters, but that America hasn't lost it's ability to build - it's just very focused on profit.
Cope? Maybe. Like I said, I don't know if I should trust the economists the way I trust psychologists and social science majors, the way I trust engineers or somewhere in between.
Again, I think Tyler's point is that a lot of what looks like dysfunction is actually function downstream of people's revealed preferences.
I'm honestly 100% uncertain on whether China wins, America wins, or both muddle along on roughly equal terms for the rest of my lifetime. I'm still skeptical of your apparent certainty, but I guess we'll see.
I don't. I'm trying to learn though. The point isn't that it literally describes a nation as it is. The point (more than a bit sentimental one) is that the ambition is deeper and more interesting than "Warsaw Pact shithole, Asia, really big", and openly stated across infinity of Party Nomenklatura documents that ≈nobody is willing to read seriously. My proposal to look at the literal characters is an attempt to break through the cognitive barrier this negative charisma duckspeak creates.
The Chinese are mostly petty men and women, like elsewhere (arguably more than elsewhere). That's fine. They have a (compelled) respect for hierarchy, and enough thinkers with enough influence, who can make meaningful nudges. It's hard to notice for cultural reasons, and the Chinese themselves are very cynical about what they're doing. But the CPC, at least in some eras including Xi's one, is a sincere ideological-civilizational project with unironic Chinese characteristics.
I recommend reading this, was pretty surprising to me. https://x.com/kyleichan/status/1992405985626124744
To restate my point, I think «lost ability to build» is melodramatic, but what is definitely true is that even «datacenters» are not a very impressive building project by Chinese standards, even adjusted for population. China could do that trivially but mom won't let them have the chips. It's ≈assembly and construction, Chinese «building» is at this point profoundly wider and deeper, they run VAST supply chains from mines to refineries/smelters to factories to shipyards. Americans are already running into constraints like having to ship transformers (physical parts, not LLMs) for their coveted Manhattan Project datacenters (eg Stargate) from China. The grid upgrade is a horrible slog. You are probably well aware of the REE context by now (read this for more if you haven't https://www.notboring.co/p/the-electric-slide).
Americans are good at building McMansions and installing HVACs, they have the workforce for that and in theory it's fungible. It remains to be seen if they can do better.
I would say that some economists are very correct but even they can be frustratingly dogmatic or outright deceptive, which nudges me towards «social science» field. For example here https://research.gavekal.com/article/unraveling-chinas-productivity-paradox/ a very fair argument is being made, except the point about FGMs is false and I bought it at face value. Lost face, very sad. Popular Total Factor Productivity stats are just gibberish. And so on. You have to scrutinize everything.
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