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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34561 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023

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???? The TOPICS are required (to the extent, of course, that anyone can cover all of the topics, which they can't. But the point is that a course needs to cover those topics, not other topics. Eg: The AP Modern World History covers "the cultural, economic, political, and social developments that have shaped the world from c. 1200 CE to the present." So, a syllabus that spent weeks comparing the Roman and Han empires would be dinged).

But, there is no mandate re HOW the topics are covered. So, in a unit in AP Modern World on Mass Atrocities After 1900, I can focus on Rwanda and Cambodia, or on Germany and the Holodomor, or whatever. Similarly, in that unit I can assign readings by Scott Straus, or by Omar McDoom (yes, the real name of a guy who studies the topic), or Lee Ann Fujii, or people who claim all of those people are misguided.

So you realistically think some teacher is going to be able to get away with assigning Steve Sailer or Charles Murray to add the HBD context to such a course? (If I were the teacher of such a course and strictly striving to be objective, I would feel deficient in that regard to not do so, irrespective of my personal political leanings.) You think that's actually possible?

You're also ignoring that the whole point of AP courses is the test, meaning that the test inevitably dictates quite a bit by gravity even if not necessarily by fiat. You're, as I stated in my other response to you, appealing to possibility while ignoring probability. The fate of those who naively accept that reasoning from their opponents is the same fate of any other gambler who bets on bad odds: the house wins.

Why should those who oppose ideology X be willing to or care to bet on the small probability that a course with every reason to be biased in favor of ideology X might, with great effort on their part that they could expend elsewhere, not be? Why go to pains to try to stop your opponent from shooting you with a gun when you can just stop them from possessing it at all in the first place? Who benefits from this other than the bad actors who caused the issue in the first place? It's the equivalent of peeing on the floor (causing concerns over education being institutionally biased towards the left by, well, institutionally capturing education in a biased left-wing fashion) and demanding someone else clean it up (expend massive resources to try to allow you to still be able to teach your favorite pet subjects without taking advantage of that capture). Why should they?

So you realistically think some teacher is going to be able to get away with assigning Steve Sailer or Charles Murray to add the HBD context to such a course?

What teachers can "get away with" is a rather different issue, but the question is not whether they would get away with adding a new topic to the course, but whether they can get away with including a variety of views on the existing topics in the course.

You're also ignoring that the whole point of AP courses is the test,

As I discuss elsewhere, that is not the whole point of AP courses. The point of AP courses is to enhance student learning.

As I discuss elsewhere, that is not the whole point of AP courses. The point of AP courses is to enhance student learning.

Is this a joke? Were you ever in AP courses? The point is to skip college classes and hopefully save money.

It's also to get higher weighted GPAs in schools that do that. Anyone in the top 10% or so of my highschool class had a GPA higher than could be achieved without taking APs, any non-AP class that took, even with a perfect score, would lower their weighted GPA.

Once upon a time, but more importantly I taught an AP class for years.

Not to generalize the world to you, but I've found educators that aren't jaded after a few years to be unreliable sources with regards to education.

I have no idea what that means, or why it is relevant. I am talking about why the course is offered, which is not to help students skip classes. Why would anyone put in all that extra work for that? And, why would you possibly think that jaded teachers are reliable sources?

I am talking about why the course is offered, which is not to help students skip classes.

I'm pretty sure that is the sales pitch that actually works though. If you think there is a different reason, and that is education, I don't think you understand school.

And, why would you possibly think that jaded teachers are reliable sources?

Because their view on education largely mirrors mine. Which is that we are wasting lots of people's time and money.

I'm pretty sure that is the sales pitch that actually works though

Perhaps, but why does that matter? If I convince my 4-yr-old that it is fun to eat vegetables by shaping them like Winnie the Pooh, does that mean that the purpose of feeding him vegetables is to have him experience fun?

Because their view on education largely mirrors mine.

That is hardly the basis for deeming them a reliable source for an empirical claim

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As I discuss elsewhere, that is not the whole point of AP courses. The point of AP courses is to enhance student learning.

How many AP students have you polled about this?

Quite a few, actually. In the form of revealed preferences. And I have certainly had lengthy discussions with school policy makers and accreditors, and that is precisely why policy makers pushed to enhance AP offerings, and why accreditors pushed them to do so.

Quite a few, actually. In the form of revealed preferences.

So you've guessed what they think?

Well, suppose you, like I did, taught an AP history class which emphasizes acquiring the skills needed for success in college rather than test prep. Suppose also you explicitly told students that that is the goal and that they will have to do a lot of outside work if they want to pass the AP test. Suppose also that very few students pass the test each year. Suppose also that the course demands a great deal of student time, and students in the class get Bs and Cs for the first time ever. Supoose also that, despite all that, each year the younger siblings and friends of those students sign up for two periods of the class in numbers that exceed the contractual class maximum. Would you infer from that that the students are motivated by a desire for college credit? Assume also that the students are not morons.

By this logic, people who enter a lottery don't actually want to win.

And even then, we're supposed to base our opinion off of your one little heterodox experiment? I know many people who took AP classes including myself. The test/college credit was the main focus.

Incidentally, you don't think it might have been a little dishonest to not have disclosed that you are/were a teacher of AP courses in this discussion sooner?

By this logic, people who enter a lottery don't actually want to win.

Whether they hope to win is not the issue. The issue is whether they get benefits even if they don't win. People go to Vegas, and to the track, even though they know that they probably won't win, because the experience is fun. People attend football games for awful teams with no hope of winning, and the players on the team play the game, because there are additional benefits other than winning. Winning is a nice bonus, but it is not necessarily the be all and end all.

And even then, we're supposed to base our opinion off of your one little heterodox experiment? I know many people who took AP classes including myself. The test/college credit was the main focus.

And I know literally hundreds of people who have taken AP classes.

Incidentally, you don't think it might have been a little dishonest to not have disclosed that you are/were a teacher of AP courses in this discussion sooner?

I don't know what would be "dishonest" about it, but in my initial post, I did say: "I have attended several AP trainings in my day,'

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Hahaha. That might be what is written down about AP courses, but in practice, the point is to give smart kids some college credit through the public school system. And ‘no, we’re not going to spend state money getting kids college credit in some field invented by literal communists and ending in -studies’ is a perfectly reasonable view to take.

Hahaha. That might be what is written down about AP courses, but in practice, the point is to give smart kids some college credit through the public school system.

It's right there in the name, "Advanced Placement". The College Board's own blurb about it:

AP gives students the chance to tackle college-level work while they're still in high school—whether they're learning online or in the classroom. And through taking AP Exams, students can earn college credit and placement.

And ‘no, we’re not going to spend state money getting kids college credit in some field invented by literal communists and ending in -studies’ is a perfectly reasonable view to take.

And I never said otherwise. As I said, initially, I am generally skeptical of "studies" courses, and as I have said above, Florida is free to decide what courses to offer and not offer. And had they said, "we think "studies" courses are usually bullshit, so we don't want to offer them," that would be fine. But, that is not what they said.

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