site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Something relevant is the rumor that Hungary had armed forces standing by when the invasion kicked off, ready to occupy the sub-Carpathian part of Ukraine - the one with a big Hungarian minority, that was annexed by Soviets from Czechoslovakia during WW2.

Something relevant is the rumor

Why is this relevant?

Among other reasons, former Polish government officials alleged as early as 2014 that Russia extended feelers about partitioning Ukraine with Poland as far back as 2008.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-poland-sikorski/polish-ex-minister-quoted-saying-putin-offered-to-divide-ukraine-with-poland-idUSKCN0I92A720141020

There is, was, and remains reason to take that claim with much skepticism, but there were also (generally unsupported / long since lost in the wave of reporting) diplomatic media whispers that Russia tried to do the same in early 2022. If the Hungarian rumor is true, it'd be corroborating of an attempt by Russia to basically split the west by making the partition of Ukraine a regional affair. In practice, this would have gone a long way towards deflecting the international blame by Russia, as by giving up even small parts of Ukraine to other European countries it could easily equivocate the blame with other opportunists, split the west in a way to prevent meaningful sanctions, and underscore Ukraine's status as a fake country composed of other, 'real' nations retaking their rightful people.

Obviously that never played out,but Russia continues to maintain media campaigns alleging that Poland is planning to intervene and annex parts of Ukraine.

A Carnegie article from July of last year summarizes some of the points

https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88585

We don't have any Hungarian members at all ?

This is exactly the kind of thing that would be both completely embarrassing and not at all covered in media, especially English language media.

EfficientSyllabus?

Seems so.

@EfficientSyllabus

However, he (I mean, 95%+ odds) hasn't been around for a couple of months, which is sad.

Hungarian rumor is true

A rumour being interesting if true is not enough to make it relevant.

"Big if true" is exactly the way to take:

Russia continues to maintain media campaigns alleging that Poland is planning to intervene and annex parts of Ukraine

and the like more seriously than they deserve.


A rumour being interesting if true is not enough to make it relevant.

No, but an allegation reported in different contexts over an extended period of time may be indiciative of a trend rather than a solitary reason. The plural of circumstantial evidence is still circumstantial evidence, but more of it is more relevant than less of it.