This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
What is your issue with leftism beyond just gender politics? Don't lump as all together like that. History and other countries show that certain parts of the leftist agenda (worker protections, anti-trust, social welfare, environmental protections, a certain degree of rights for women) are both very popular and good for society. You can't just force certain things back in a hole: Franco tried that, Pinochet tried that, and it didn't fucking work.
Also the left is self-immolating without your "heroic stand". We haven't had an actual leftist party in power since the end of the Soviet Union in the West because the we're too busy infighting and tone policing over trivialities.
Worker protections didn’t need leftism. Richer people negotiate better labor conditions when they get richer. Environmental has happened in both parties. But the right doesn’t have Marxism/de-growth environmentalism.
Franco and Pinochet were great leaders. Chile to this day long after Pinochet left the scene is the wealthiest and most stable Latam country.
Franco and Pinochet both committed large scale mass murder. Franco was exhumed from his tomb because of how much the Spanish hate him now. Pinochet has received similar, if not as extreme treatment. The fact is that both dictators failed to actually halt the tide of rising leftism in their countries.
Uhhh that first part sounds like dogma. Labor unions and strikes were vital for raising wages and working conditions in the Industrial Revolution.
I don’t care about large scale mass murder. Overall they probably saved more lives. They mostly killed communists who would have killed more people. Both countries would have went communists without them. Pinochet even did more an invited all the Chicago boys into his country and created a lot of wealth.
Pinochet is one of my heroes and a top 10 politician of the last 50 years.
We are so diametrically opposite on this I don’t even know where to start! Kudos to theMotte for bringing these viewpoints together!
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link