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Notes -
Minor update on the US-PRC tech competition.
Culture war significance: it matters for the grand strategy understanding and the narrative of the US as the Main Character of History. Personally, I had stopped regularly engaging on this forum when it became clear that the US is, in fact, not such a Main Character (at least for the moment), but just a great power with massive momentum and cultural influence. Not being American, I mainly only care about American cultural affairs insofar as they have global spillover effects. Local legislation news and woke-MAGA strife are overwhelmingly noise for the world, unless they reach some critical volume like peak woke or BLM did. Some American tech, and related politics, is very much not noise. The chip war in particular is very high-signal, so I follow it closely.
It seems something happened behind the scenes after those events in October, when the US Department of Commerce went with the Affiliate Rule, China retaliated with REE+ export controls, and soon enough, by November 1, we've got the usual Trump style Deal. (There's also a subplot with Nexperia/Wingtech, that demonstrates Chinese supply chain power and European ineptitude again, with a similar outcome of the Western actor retreating). Suddenly, on Dec 8, we get the news about Trump permitting the sales of H200 to China (context and understandable rationalist perspective here). China reacts somewhat paradoxically, if your theory of their mind is just «they're desperate for our chips» – as per the FT, «Companies seeking to purchase the H200 would need to submit a request explaining why they cannot use domestically produced chips and undergo an approval process», in continuation of their earlier scrutiny, rejections and negative publicity directed at H20s.
10 days later Reuters breaks the news – which were not quite news for those in the know – about Chinese successes with their EUV effort. The article is somewhat confused, as almost all reporting on Chinese AI and IC tech is; from my private sources, the situation has already moved further on multiple components, like optics and metrology.
What I want to emphasize here is that it's not just trivial «industrial espionage» or IP theft. Their light source project is led by former ASML head of light source technology and «Light source competence owner for metrology in ASML research» Lin Nan. I think that he returned not just for money, nationalism or career opportunities, but because China offered him a more ambitious challenge – he seems interested in solid state lasers, which ASML, constrained by market incentives more than strategic considerations, gave up on. For sure, straightforward IP theft also happens - CXMT's DRAM/HBM progress is apparently propped up by Samsung IP which was, well, illicitly transfered by former employees. And there's very substantial domestic talent pipeline, though people are prone to dismiss their patent/paper counts; they lack brand power, «Changchun Institute of Optics» doesn't have the same zing to it as Zeiss, though you may see it in the news soon.
All in all, China is moving far faster than even I imagined. Now we get reports – straining my credulity, to be honest – that ByteDance doesn't expect Nvidia to sell move than a few hundred thousand cards in China, not because of any trade barriers from either side, but because adequate domestic competition will come online in mid-2026 already. Almost certainly it'll be worse and less power-efficient, at least. But clusters with Chinese hardware are eligible for electricity subsidies, and that may be enough to tip the scales? This logic is corroborated by the surprisingly low leaked price of H200s – just $200.000 for an 8-card module (not sure if that's before of after 25% Trump Tax, but in any case very low, maybe lower than in the US proper, at least pre-tax). Meanwhile that's 5 times more bang for the buck than H20s offered. On the other hand, for now Nvidia is selling old stock; new production is being discussed, but at this rate I don't expect the price to increase. One can reasonably ask if this makes any sense, given that the demand in the US outstrips supply. I think it does, both for complex strategic reasons (mainly ecosystem lock-in, which is in fact a big deal, as I explain here) and simply because the US AI market is becoming a very convoluted circular Ponzi scheme where Nvidia de facto subsidizes companies to buy Nvidia wares. That's more of a potential market meltdown recipe than a revenue source. H200 sales to China, for what it's worth, unambiguously pull in dollars, and both Jensen's fudiciary duty and Trump's deficit-slashing mandate (and to be blunt, likely Trump's corruption) create a strong incentive to greenlight them.
Anyway, what looked like Chinese bluffing and negging at the time the sale of H20s was debated looks more and more like genuine, coherent industrial policy. China is pretty sure it'll have sovereignty in the entire stack of AI development, soon enough, that it will even be capable enough to export its AI hardware products, and the US is acting as if that is likely true – as if the competition is about market share and revenue. They are obviously compute-constrained right now, so DeepSeek V3.2 only catches up to around GPT-5 level, with the usual complaints in the paper. They don't appear to mind this enough to bow and scrape for more American chips at any cost. A large component here is that what they need, they can often rent overseas openly –
– but I think it's primarily about confidence in the domestic supply chain.
Long before all these events, in September, we had a debate with @aquota here, when the topic was selling China relatively worthless H20s. (For my previous take on H20s specifically see here).
He argued:
To which I've replied:
It seems to me that my read on the situation from back then, both the big picture and its implications for compute strategy, is now shared by both the USG and the CPC. The former is trying to regain its position and revenue in the Chinese GPU market and slow down Huawei/Cambricon/Kunlun/etc. ecosystem development by flooding the zone with mature Nvidia chips that will be adopted by all frontier players (eg DeepSeek again – they have a deep bench of Nvidia-specific talent and aren't willing to switch to half-baked Ascend CANN). The latter is more worried about preventing the US from doing that than about gaining moar FLOPS in the short run.
In conclusion, I want to congratulate Americans again with having found a true peer, for the first time since the decline of the British empire. Germans, Japanese and my own people had failed to provide enough stimulation, so Americans have grown lonely and fat at the top.
Aquota said:
I do not, in fact, "understand" this. Like, that may be the case and we'll just have Pax Sinica. I'm okay with it but I'm not Sinophilic enough to expect it. Even reduced to "just a great power", the US is poised to remain a historical force.
For now the loss of the indisputable Main Character status is being processed traumatically, with anger, denial and exaggeration of the costs of that loss if it were to really happen. But as its reality sinks in, this trauma may become fertile grounds for some cultural Renaissance in the United States. Less capeshit, more self-awareness. I may even come to care about it for reasons aside from global consequences.
…Of course, we can still entertain the hypothesis that all of the above is some interesting ephemera and this final dash of the Chosen Nation towards AGI-powered Rapture and completion of history is the real story of the times. I won't completely discount it, we shall see.
I agree with the general point about the US losing its broad supremacy. In many fields, America is well behind with little prospect of catching up and there is indeed an unseemly amount of American reflexive dismissal of inferiority. Too many clowns on twitter posting about blowing up the Three Gorges Dam. There's an alarmingly casual attitude to conflict in the information sphere of today's world, as though it's something you can just start and end as you please. War is the most serious matter there is, it must be considered coldly and carefully.
Won't the US enjoy a quantitative and qualitative superiority in AI though, based on the compute advantage, through to at least the 2030s? Chinese models are pretty good and very cost-efficient but lean more towards benchmaxxed than general intelligence. GLM-4.7 for instance, supposedly it has stats comparable to Opus 4.5. But my subjective testing throws up a huge disparity between them, Opus is much stronger. It one-shots where others flounder. That's what you'd expect given the price difference, it's a lightweight model vs a heavyweight model... but where are the Chinese heavyweight models? They only compete on cost-efficiency because they can't get the compute needed for frontier performance. If Teslas cost 40K and BYD costs 20K and Tesla doesn't just get wrecked by BYD, then it would show that there's a significant qualitative gap. In real life of course BYD is wrecking Tesla, they have rough qualitative parity and so cost-efficiency dominates. But Chinese AI doesn't seem to have a competitive advantage, not on openrouter anyway, despite their cost-efficiency they lack the neccessary grunt.
If AGI isn't a big deal and it ends up being a cost-efficiency game of commoditized AI providing modest benefits, then China wins. Zero chance for America in any kind of prolonged competition against such a huge country. America is too dopey to have a chance, letting China rent Blackwell chips is foolish. Too dopey to do diplomacy coherently, too dopey to shut down the open-air fent markets, too dopey to build frigates... America is probably the ablest and most effectively run country in the Western bloc overall. That is not a very high bar to meet. The US would need to be on another level entirely to beat China. It's that same lightweight v heavyweight competition.
But if AI/AGI/ASI is a big deal, then America enjoys a decisive advantage. Doesn't matter if China has 20 AGI at Lvl 5 if the US has 60 at Lvl 8. I think a significantly more intelligent AI is worth a lot more than cheaper and faster AI in R&D, robotics, cyberwarfare, propagandizing, planning. And just throwing more AI at problems is naturally better. There will be a huge compute drought. There's a compute drought right now, AI is sweeping through the whole semiconductor sector like Attila the Hun, razing (raising) prices.
China doesn't have the necessary HBM, the necessary HBM just doesn't exist. Even America is struggling, let alone China. Even if China had enough good chips to go with their good networking, there's no good memory to go with them.
In a compute drought, the compute-rich country is king. In an AI race, the compute-rich country is king. China would be on the back foot and need to use military force to get back in the game.
I don't think GLM is really that high. In my experience it may be more comparable to, like, Xiaomi V2-Flash or Minimax M2.1. Chinese ecosystem is uneven, and GLM team has massive clout thanks to their Tsinghua ties. I believe they're a bit overhyped.
It probably will have the advantage, but a) unclear what this advantage gives you practically, and b) the divergence from compounding this advantage keeps getting postponed. Roughly a year ago, Dario Amodei wrote:
Well, American companies already have millions of chips. We're nearing 2026. Multiple models trained on those superclusters already got released, RL cost is now in high millions, probably tens if not hundreds of millions for Grok 4 and GPTs, and likely Claudes. Result: Opus is not really far smarter than V3.2, an enhanced version of a year-old model Dario writes about, with total post-training costs around $1M. On some hard math tasks, V3.2 Speciale is not just like 20x cheaper per task but straight up superior to American frontier at the time of release. The gap has, if anything, shrank. Wasn't «gold at IMO» considered a solid AGI target and a smoke alarm of incoming recursive self-improvement not so long ago? V3.2-Speciale gets that gold for pennies, but now we've moved goalposts to Django programming, playing Pokemon and managing a vending machine. Those are mode open-ended tasks but I really don't believe they are indexing general intelligence better.
Maybe we'll see the divergence finally materializing in 2026-2027. But I think we won't, because apparently the biggest bottleneck is still engineering talent, and Americans are currently unable to convert their compute advantage into a technological moat. They know the use cases and how to optimize for user needs, they don't really know how to burn $1B of GPU-hours to get a fundamentally stronger model. There's a lot of uncertainty about how to scale further. By the time they figure it out, China has millions of chips too.
There is an interesting possibility that we are exactly at this juncture, with maturation of data generation and synthetic RL environment pipelines on both sides. If so, we'll see US models get a commanding lead for the next several months, and then it would be ablated again by mid-late 2026.
V3.2 was a qualitative shift, a sign that the Chinese RL stack is now mature and probably more efficient, and nobody paid much attention to it. Miles is former Head of Policy Research and Senior Advisor for AGI Readiness at OpenAI, and he pays attention, but it flew under the radar.
Another reason I'm skeptical about compounding benefits of divergence is that it seems we're figuring out how to aggregate weak-ish (and cheap) model responses to get equal final performance. This has interesting implications for training. Consider that on SWE-rebench, V3.2 does as well as «frontier models» in pass@5 regime, and the cost here is without caching; they have caching at home so it's more like $0.1 per run and not $0.5. We see how even vastly weaker models can be harnessed for frontier results if you can provide enough inference. China prioritizes domestic inference chips for 2026. Fun fact, you don't need real HBM, you can make do with LPDDR hybrids.
But all of that is probably secondary to social fundamentals, the volume and kind of questions that are economical to ask, the nature of problems being solved.
I think all of this is stages of grief about the fact that the real king is physics and we have a reasonably good command of physics. Unless AGI unlocks something like rapid nanoassembly and billion-qubit quantum computers, it may simply not change the trajectory significantly. The condition of being a smaller and, as you put it, dopey society compromises "compute advantage". Great American AI will make better robots? Well, it'll likely train better policies in simulation. But China is clearly far ahead at producing robots and can accelerate to tens of millions in little time given their EV industrial base, gather more deployment data, iterate faster, while American startups are still grifting with their bullshit targets. Similar logic applies in nearly every physical domain. Ultimately you need to actually make things. Automated propaganda is… probably not the best idea, American society is too propagandized as is. Cyberwarfare… will American AGI God really be good enough to hack Huawei clusters after their inferior Temu AGI has hunted for vulnerabilities in an airgapped regime for a few months? I think cyberwarfare is largely going dodo in this world, everyone will have an asymmetric defense advantage.
Obviously, that's still the most credible scheme to achieve American hegemony, conquer the light cone etc. etc. I posit that even it is not credible enough and has low EV, because it's an all-or-nothing logic where «all» is getting elusive.
Maybe it can't hack the servers directly if they're airgapped (though I wouldn't underestimate the power of some social-engineered fool bringing in a compromised USB) but it could hack everything around the servers, the power production, logistics, financing, communications, transport, construction. I doubt the servers even are airgapped, modern data centers are saturated with wireless signals from Wi-Fi peripherals, IoT sensors, and private LTE/5G networks. The modern economy is a giant mess of countless digital parts.
I think people underestimate the power of 'nation of geniuses in a datacentre', even without any major breakthroughs in physics, I think mere peak human-level AIs at scale could wipe the floor with any technological power without firing a shot. In cyber there is no perfect defence, only layers of security and balancing risk mitigation v cost. The cost of defending against a nation of geniuses would be staggering, you'd need your own nation of geniuses. Maybe they could find some zero-day exploits. Maybe they could circumnavigate the data centre and put vulnerabilities in the algorithms directly, find and infiltrate the Chinese version of Crowdstrike? Or just raze the Chinese economy wholesale. All those QR code payments and smart city infrastructure can be vulnerabilities as well as strengths.
China's already been kind of doing this 'exploit large high IQ population' with their own massive economic cyberwarfare program. It works, it's a smart idea. 10,000 hackers can steal lots of secrets, could 10 million wreck a whole country's digital infrastructure? You may have read that short story by Ci Xin Liu about the rogue AI program that just goes around causing human misery to everyone via hacking.
I believe that the physical domain is trumped by the virtual. Even nuclear command and control can potentially be compromised by strong AIs, I bet that wherever there is a complex system, there will be vulnerabilities that humans haven't judged cost-efficient to defend against.
I think it's funny that we've both kinda swapped positions on AI geopolitics over time, you used to be blackpilled about US hegemony until Deepseek came along... Nevertheless I don't fully disagree and predicting the future is very hard, I could well be wrong and you right or both of us wrong.
Eh, I think Pokemon and vending machines are good tasks. It's long-form tasks that matter most, weaving all those beautiful pearls (maths ability or physics knowledge) into a necklace. We have plenty of pearls, we need them bound together. And I don't think 3.2 does as well as Claude Code, at least not if we go by the 'each 5% is harder than the 5%' idea in these benchmarks.
You misunderstood my point. I am saying that hacking as such will become ineffectual in a matter of years. Automated SWEs make defense drastically advantaged over offense due to information asymmetry in favor of the defender and rapid divergence in codebases. This “superhacker AGI” thing is just lazy thinking. How long do you think it takes, between open source AIs that win IOI&IMO Gold for pennies, and formally verified kernels for everything, in a security-obsessed nation that has dominated image recognition research just because it wanted better surveillance?
A very American belief, to be sure.
Agreed. I'm not convinced the space of exploits reachable via ASI is meaningfully bigger than the space already reachable by fuzzers, code analysis, and blackhat brains. ASI hacking is a fantasy.
That said, AI tools have, are, and will "democratize" access to exploits we already have. A lot of incompetent enterprise IT deployment people are going to have to get fired and replaced with people or agents that can keep up with patches.
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