This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Just to make a general observation about the gender war as a followup to my comment on the Promise Keepers organization:
I think we can generally observe is that women’s main complaint about men is that desirable hetero men are unwilling to exclusively commit. If we accept this, we can also see that this is actually two complaints rolled into one. 1. The men that are willing to commit are undesirable (icky, clingy, lame, “chopped”, entitled, toxic, porn-addled, skinny fat etc.). 2. The men that are desirable are unwilling to commit. (On a tangent I’d argue that most of the lipstick feminist complaints made in the mainstream media by middle-class women about men in general do usually boil down to the rather similar complaint that 34-37-year-old successful, well-paid, charismatic, tall, ambitious etc. urban men are in no rush to marry 31-34-year-old college-educated middle-class office worker women.)
If we look at this logically, to the extent that it even makes sense to try doing so (which is a valid question in itself), there are two potential remedies for this problem. 1. Focus on the undesirable men that are willing to commit and somehow transform them into desirable men i.e. alphaize the betas 2. Focus on the desirable men and incentivize them to commit i.e. betaize the alphas.
Now I don’t know about you but to me it seems self-evident that #2 has more potential for success no matter how you look at it and yet virtually everyone who makes any sort of recommendations regarding this entire issue (and that does not only include Red Pillers) is promoting #1. No, really – I’ve never seen anyone advocate for #2, not even the Promise Keepers or, for that matter, any other similar group that does not claim to be feminist and is at the same time pushing the nebulous concept of a new positive masculinity.
Am I seeing things that are not there or is this really not the case? Because as far as I can tell, it is. It seems like there is a general unspoken consensus in society that trying to compel sexually successful men to commit to women is a completely impossible, pie-in-the-sky idea that deserves no attention at all; that, in other words, expecting modern women to elicit commitment from the men they are attracted to is laughable lunacy.
I do feel the rise of dating apps makes it a lot more possible for women to reach above their assortative mating tier for 'casual dating' and then completely break their internal sense of what's actually achievable/practical. I've got a few female friends and acquaintances who are holding out for a hot doctor as husband material or whatever since they've occasionally been able to have casual sex with one.
The biggest problem wasn't apps, though they are an inevitable result probably.
The biggest problem was the migration of most romantic and flirtatious interaction to text based typed formats, which are inherently scalable.
I can only take one girl for a drink on a date Friday night, or rock climbing Saturday afternoon, or wake up in bed with her on Sunday.
I can text seven girls "us" under a picture of two cats snuggling, a thirst trap of me rock climbing, a quirky story about the coffee shop I found, a picture of a funny passage from the book I'm reading, a joke I heard, and a picture of me laying artfully nude in bed Sunday morning. And they'll all be reasonably satisfied, or at least too satisfied with that level of intimacy to feel a real need to settle for lower quality elsewhere.
Digital affection scales in ways that physical affection cannot. I can only have sex with one woman with one erection, I can sext seven women with the same erection.
Most women would prefer real sex with a real man who is really theirs, but they're never going to feel needy enough to go get it.
More options
Context Copy link
This and the way the quantification of criteria became memetic. Most women do generally prefer a man taller than they are. But as most women aren’t 5’10” or 6’0”, the arbitrary thresholds of 6’0” or 6’2” work against them in finding a fulfilling love life. In person courtship is better suited to producing happy relationships, as the metrics used are less needlessly-precise.
I frequently tell femcel friends that statistically the man you're going to end up with is a few inches shorter and a few shades browner than your ideal.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link