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PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   32905 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 5, 2026

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I do not think Ashli Babbit was a case where lethal force was warranted.

Perhaps not, but I think there is a general moral principle that when an activist inserts himself into an ugly/violent/explosive situation, the activist needs to be on his best behavior under penalty of forfeiting any claim to charity or sympathy. By this standard, neither Babbit, Good, nor Rittenhouse deserve much in the way of charity. In Rittenhouse's case though, he handled himself extremely well so that even without any charity, he should be (and was) exonerated.

From a legal perspective, these are different questions, of course. I do know that when it comes to private property, you can normally use lethal force against an intruder without waiting to see how much a threat the person poses. [Edit: Apparently this is not necessarily true] Does this principle apply to an intruder in a specific room in a public building? I don't know.

I didn't pay much attention to the Ashley Babbit situation at the time, but what concerns me now is this: If there is a general rule that law enforcement cannot open fire against an (apparently) unarmed intruder in a public building, it opens the door (so to speak) to mob tactics where the authorities won't be able to protect the building (and themselves) until it's too late.

I do know that when it comes to private property, you can normally use lethal force against an intruder without waiting to see how much a threat the person poses.

This is not in fact true in most states. Castle Doctrine says you have no duty to retreat within your home (though some states don't even have that), but you still have to have a reasonable fear of grave bodily harm.

This is not in fact true in most states. Castle Doctrine says you have no duty to retreat within your home (though some states don't even have that), but you still have to have a reasonable fear of grave bodily harm.

Thanks for pointing this out. I had recalled learning at some point that if there's an intruder in your house, you don't have to wait to see if the person has a gun, knife, etc. -- you can just open fire.

I did find this online:

Some states—including Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Wisconsin, and Wyoming—have replaced the "reasonable person" standard, which placed the burden on the defendant to show that their defensive action were reasonable, with a "presumption of reasonableness," or "presumption of fear," which shifts the burden of proof to the prosecutor. In these states, the prosecutor has the burden to prove the defendant was "unreasonable."

I do think that as a practical matter, a homeowner has a great deal of leeway in terms of using lethal force against an (unlawful) intruder. But it doesn't seem that this is a bright line rule.

I feel like a lot of the talk about Babbitt seems to assume that nothing short of lethal force would work. I think this is because currently our law enforcement uses basically no force when dealing with rioters so riots get out of hand. It is very easy and practical to use non-lethal force to crowd control unarmed people. If the police fully utilized the non-lethal options at their disposal to deal with rioters, rubber bullet, tear gas, water cannons, truncheons, handcuffs, etc. then I think that should be more than sufficient to control such hypothetical situations.

I think this is downstream of American Revolution/Independence hagiography and then Civil Rights.

For historical reasons, the US is very sensitive to the optics of putting down riots. It’s supposed to be done by the nasty people that America was made to get away from. So if it’s not serious enough to start shooting, nothing should be done.

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