This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
You don't do* "data-based analysis of trends." You post surveys and magazine articles that reinforce your opinion. But to give you a bit of allowance here, the problem is not so much that the surveys don't have meaningful data ("the dating market is a disaster and everyone is unhappy"), but the conclusions you draw from that.
I'll indulge your demand to explain my "epistemic philosophy" when you stop confidently declaring that people don't really believe the things they say because you disagree with them.
See, you seem to think I search out these studies specifically because I already formed a belief.
You can look back through years of posts and you might notice my opinion is the result of finding dozens upon dozens of various surveys, studies, anecdotes and data that all pointed to where I'm at now.
The data is the reason I developed this particular opinion.
And I will develop it further if you, or anyone else, can give me some reason to reach a different conclusion.
It DOES reinforce my opinion when I tell people who disagree with me that I am willing to look at their data and change my mind and they don't provide any.
It STRONGLY SUGGESTS that you are forming your opinion from... what, exactly? What feels better to believe? I have a few hypotheses.
But the longer you go without providing any data in response, the more I conclude that contradictory data does not exist.
Because I've looked.
That seems to be the standard you're applying. I'm game to play along.
I think you don't believe that I'm disappointed with the 'injustices' allegedly heaped upon me or that I have some deep-seated bias against women, because I can assure you I have never said any words to that effect, and I've often said the opposite.
I've never claimed that the world owes me, or that something I'm entitled to has been taken, or that I blame the opposite sex for my misery. Also, I'm not miserable. If I felt that way... I'D SAY IT.
I understand if it seems frustrating, but you're in one of the few places on the public internet where one is expected to stand by their beliefs as stated rather than hop back and forth between your true beliefs and the beliefs that are easy to defend.
I'm stating exactly what I think, why I think it, and inviting the attacks on it. I can even lay out pretty specific terms for what would change my mind on this issue.
I did in fact believe you felt angry at injustice done to you. But since you say I was mistaken, I believe you. I came to that conclusion because your tone in discussing your own experiences in the past struck me as very similar to the bitter way our incels talk. So you see, I will amend my beliefs and correct errors.
That said, we've talked before about your expectations of women and how you feel society puts too much responsibility on men and not enough on women. You may not feel you personally are being treated unjustly, but there is an injustice in that we aren't, as you put it, "mean" enough to women.
Amusingly enough, I don't even disagree with you as much as you seem to think about the ground-level truths. But I always get angry responses for not blaming women enough.
If you truly think I think something I don't, perhaps I am a poor communicator, but one way to reliably annoy me is to call me a liar. I believe what I say I believe.
Ayyyy. Glad to see it.
I would amend that to be that society heaps responsibility on men and hampers their ability to fulfill it. This is what the individual 'bootstraps' dialogue hits on. "Its nobody else's responsibility to help you." But whose responsibility is it when they're actively interfering with you? Young men can't be to blame for EVERYTHING wrong with society... but if they try and blame anybody else that just invites further criticism.
This would be a touchy point. Responsibility/Authority and blame are two sides of the same coin in my book. You CAN'T blame someone for something they weren't responsible for.
If women want to accept more responsibility (and the rewards that come with it) they also have to accept blame if they screw up.
But there's clearly a tendency to avoid blaming women for various outcomes, and treat them like they are not responsible for their actions.
And I only see two ways to resolve this:
Either many women as less responsible for their actions than the average men... but then we really need to adopt legal and social standards that recognize this (like with children).
Or, women are indeed responsible for their actions... and thus they should be held to the same standards as men. I'm just a girl is not a defense, then.
And 'held to the same standards as men' means holding them at least partially accountable for the collapse in gender relations/marriage rates/fertility.
I don't see how we can both say women are fully agentic and responsible for their own actions... but also blameless when those actions have predictable negative consequences.
But saying women aren't fully agentic and responsible for their own actions is... not very nice, is it?
Having explained your position more; I retract any implication that you're lying. I see why you would conclude what you did.
And I sincerely did not want to offend, and I see how you would have taken offense. I apologize if I goaded too much. I'm now certain you're not an intentional troll, which seemed like a possibility for a bit.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link