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Why would you suppose we have very similar interests?
What sort of American?
There's a considerable number of Americans who would welcome this, I'd imagine.
I don't want to live in Europe. I don't want to live anywhere like Europe. I don't want where I live to become more like Europe, even marginally. I would prefer actual war against the authorities to this happening. Your entire social consensus is inimical to what I view as fundamental human rights and basic principles of liberty. We are not friends in any meaningful sense; you are allied with my tribal enemies, and will be for the foreseeable future.
Again, Carney says it best:
I perceive integration with Europe one of the major sources of my subordination.
oh generally, if you can like people in general. It's ideological convergence mostly: individualism, freedom (especially speech), plus a certain "moral affinity for the strong". I think american hegemony was largely beneficial.
You: have a pathological hatred of the blue tribe, which you transfer onto europeans. One day, frustrated in your attempts to provoke a civil war at home, you'll charge naked at Greenland or Vancouver. Decoupling from such volatile and extreme polarization makes sense, of course.
A bit up-thread @lollol linked Issendai's deep-dive into the world of estranged parents' forums, I can't help but see echoes of it here.
Trump has been a public figure for 30+ years. he wrote an entire book about how "there are no friends or foes at the negotiating table, only competing interests", about the necessity of "doing away with polite fictions in favor of honest dialog", and the utility of using intentionally erratic and absurd behavior to to sus out hidden motives and insecurities. "Slam the door and see who flinches" is how he put it.
...and a lot of commentors, including both yourself and the OP, seem to be tying yourselves in cognitive knots to avoid considering the possibility that he might have actually meant what he said. They keep going on about how Trump is being abusive and spitting in their face but they're ultimately acting the role of the toxic parent who refuses to accept the fact that their children have moved out of the house and now have careers and families of their own. They keep trying to play the "So long as you live under my roof and I'm paying the bills you need to shut up and do as I say" card, but that's just the thing, you have not been paying the bills.
Wait, how on earth are the europeans the parents in this analogy? Rutte (who should seriously stfu) called Trump Daddy, which is imo one of the sources of his late megalomaniac bender.
I tend to side with the parents on such forums (and the mirror "my mom is a narcissist" type). My prior is that the reasons given by the kids really are stupid. Most of pop psychology consists of inventing reasons why your parents made you a failure.
Wow, that post is evil. Especially the final part where it denies the possibility of healing the relationship. Of course it approvingly cites an "Expert" anonymous psychologist (who else?), who seems to think that threatening to end the relationship with your parents is the best way of winning an argument. A mom cites a clearly stupid reason their kid hates them, people take a step back, and then go "I'd like to go back to the cornflake issue". Beyond parody.
Anyway, that illustrates that I have a moral affinity for the strong. My sympathy initially lies with the US, and also (slightly) with trump against the democrats. But his late behaviour towards us is unacceptable and I just want out. We are no longer friends, I accept that, but we are not children to be abused and threatened at will, and if he continues, then we will be enemies.
The Europeans are the parents in this analogy in part because you (that is Europe) made us. We were amalgamation of Anglo, French, Dutch, and Spanish colonists before we became "The United States" and to some extant we still are. There is still a great deal of pride in that ancestry and a strong cultural affinity even today.
But pride and affinity don't pay the bills. You ask "how on earth are the Europeans the parents in this analogy" and then go on to take the parents side. Maybe it's my own experience sharing a family with addicts and alcoholics but I am much less inclined to simply dismiss the kids as "stupid" out of hand, and maybe that's why I feel the post is relevant.
Pointing out that Europe is a weak and unreliable ally who's values often clash with ours, and who is at this very moment actively funding the ongoing slaughter in Ukraine through their purchases of Russian energy and goods is not "abuse" it is an explanation.
You might not like what was said, or who said it, but that doesn't change the fact that you know the reason why many in the US are cooling towards Europe, but Just like the parents in that post you avoid acknowledging it.
To quote the closing monologue...
You are not understanding the problem. Talking to me like we‘re negotiating the amount of the „fair share“ I should pay to you, or what I need to do for Ukraine or in our internal politics to accomodate you .
No. Listen to what I‘m saying. You say you have affection for europeans, and I feel the same about americans, but we are beyond that now. Our relationship has been irreparably damaged by trump‘s threats and insults. I am not like trump – saying outrageous things as a negotiating anchor with the intention of backing down to a lower number, or macho trash-talking, empty bragging about my own strength. I mean what I say. I want to make it official that our alliance is cancelled, and americans out of europe.
You feel that I do not understand and I feel that you are not listening.
You say that our relationship has been irreparably damaged by trump‘s threats and insults. I would say that our relationship has been deteriorating a while now. Trump's "threats and insults" are not the cause of that damage, they are the effect of a relationship that was already critically damaged.
Europe, or rather Europe's leadership chose to cozy up to Russia and China while taking American friendship for granted, and they laughed at us when we tried to warn them of the dangers. Europe has flat-out told us on multiple occasions that they do not view us as friends and allies but as an economic resource. Recall that back in 2020 when when Congress was talking about closing US bases in Germany, the German government objected on the grounds that it would disrupt the local economies of cities like Rammstein and Stuttgart, not on grounds of security.
As a result, there is sincere doubt within the US about Europe's value as an ally. If Chinese missiles started raining down on US cities tomorrow would Europe cut themselves off from Chinese trade? If the last 5 years are any indication, the answer would appear to be no. Even if Europe were in a position to offer aid to the US in such circumstances (which is what all this talk about NATO readiness is really about) would there be the inclination? Again, if the last 5 years are any indication, the answer would appear to be no.
On China: You are right to doubt our commitment. Everything else aside, Trump‘s and his supporters‘ comments reek of hubris, jingoism and imperial sickness. And the last thing europe needs is to get sucked into a huge war against a formidable enemy like china because of american pride. So from a european perspective, the alliance is doing less and less for us, and the probability that it could cost us catastrophically keeps increasing.
Americans want a level of compensation (delian tribute, really) we‘re never going to give – because it‘s not like we‘d fall to russian conquest if you just leave ; post WWII yes, but the wolf isn‘t at the door anymore. A chihuaha perhaps, or a wounded pygmy bear – and a panda, but they‘re vegetarian, as far as we know.
Anyway, the question of „who was a bad ally first“ is all rear-view mirror stuff. Whoever „started the breakup“ is irrelevant, we agree the relationship is bad now, so let‘s just end it.
Then why is the entire European establishment apoplectic at the mere thought of Trump cutting support for Ukraine? Why is the argument against appeasement that Putin will just keep pushing west? If Russia is just a chihuahua, Europe should be able to handle the situation all on it's own.
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