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An international body of third-party experts should decide what constitutes Palestinian land, based on informed estimates of the areas depopulated due to the terror campaign. In the same way that one person didn’t decide the outcome of Germany after WWII, it would be silly to speculate the exact parameters of what is owed to Palestinians. A solid rule: if Israelis used terrorism to cleanse the land, that land should be returned to Palestinians.
At least around the Iron Age, based on DNA. The Christian Palestinians even have a Biblical claim to the land, being descended from the agriculturalists who “converted” to Christianity, and staying put as the Jewish community migrated to Babylon and then dispersed globally to pursue higher wages. There is no reason to think there is significant Arab admixture given how close their DNA is to Samaritans.
Ok, and I guess you agree that any area depopulated of Jews due to a terror campaign is Jewish land?
Just so I understand this, you are claiming that
(1) DNA analysis of Palestinian Arabs connects them to what is now Israel going back thousands of years; and
(2) DNA analysis of other groups, including Jews, does not do so?
Sure, and that happened with WWII reparations, with Germany paying some high number of billions. What’s wrong with that? If there is some ancestral quarter for Jews in Baghdad and the government made them flee through terrorism, they should have that back or be offered compensation.
I provided some links in this comment. The Palestinians (particularly the Christians) show direct continuity with DNA of Ancient Israel. Samaritans show the closest link of course, which makes sense, and then there’s the Iraqi Jews showing a close link. Ashkenazim are somewhat far away in terms of genetics.
Perhaps nothing, perhaps a lot.
And the same applies to Gaza City, Hebron, and the eastern part of Jerusalem? That's all Jewish Land in your view, or at least the neighborhoods where Jews lived prior to being ethnically cleansed?
I am a little confused. Are you saying that Palestinian Arabs (and only Palestinian Arabs) have direct continuity with DNA of Ancient Israel?
Okay, so it sounds like by your definition, Israel sits on "Jewish Land." Right?
What is colloquially called “Palestinian Arab” encompasses the descendants of the House of Israel who stayed in the land and converted to Christianity and later Islam. They have the strongest direct continuity to ancient Israel according to available DNA distance tools. One study in Nature found that Ashkenazim are majority Italian in ancestry, but all available comparisons show that they are further away than the indigenous Palestinians.
I'm not totally sure that I understand your argument.
It seems your position is that any area which was depopulated of Palestinian Arabs due to terror campaigns is "Palestinian Land."
Logically, it follows that any area which was depopulated of Jews due to terror campaigns is "Jewish Land." Presumably, this includes Hebron, the eastern part of Jerusalem, and Gaza City.
Do you agree? Or does your position apply only to Palestinian Arabs?
Additionally, you say that what is now Israel has been "Palestinian Land" because some subset of Palestinian Arabs has can be shown to have genetic continuity with those who were there thousands of years ago. At the same time, you seem to agree that at least some subset of the Jews also has such continuity. Therefore, it follows -- based on YOUR reasoning -- that the whole area is Jewish Land.
If I have misunderstood you in any way please let me know.
Otherwise, I have a question: What should Israel do about attempts of the Palestinian Arabs to steal Jewish Land?
If an event in Hebron satisfies the conditions of (1) state sponsored (2) terrorism (3) which expelled the native inhabitants or owners of the land (4) evidenced by solid historiography, then yes. I see that the 1929 riot was preceded by —
And at least three Israeli historians assert that the riot began when three Arabs were killed. This makes the historiography fuzzy: obviously, if you move in from Poland and New York and declare with a flag that someone else’s land belongs to you, and then you kill three Arabs, a violent retaliation for that can’t really be considered “terrorism”, even if the retaliation is disproportionate enough to charge men with crimes. And evidently both Arabs and Jews were charged. Which is good that they were charged.
Is this what you mean? Do you just want to discuss Hebron in depth? You can just specify your argument.
Because all Palestinians have more genetic continuity than Ashkenazi, but especially the Christian Palestinians.
Yes, the Mizrachim, from what I can tell, especially Iraqi Jews.
Well, no. When you sell property, the property no longer belongs to you. Similarly, if you vacate property, it no longer belongs to you. I think the confusion here is that you believe that Jews were displaced from Israel. This is actually a myth. Jews continued to live in Israel after losing the war against Rome, synagogues continued to be built, and it was largely due to economic reasons that Jews voluntarily left the land of Israel for Babylon in later centuries. Zvi Eckstein has a great paper showing that the travel to Babylon and beyond makes sense in light of the income that Jews could generate thanks to their new religion (Rabbinicalism) which essentially demanded literacy. The illiterate Jews were despised by the Rabbis, and they wound up shifting to Christianity.
While the Jews volitionally left their betrothed land to, well, serve Mammon (poetically speaking), a remnant of the Chosen People who recognized Christ remained in the land (why would a farmer or shepherd leave?). Volitionally leaving land is irrelevant here.
Let's see if I understand: If Group X is ethnically cleansed from Land Y in response to bad conduct by a few members of Group X, then Land Y no longer belongs to Group X. Is that your position?
Not just Hebron. Jews were also ethnically cleansed from Gaza City and the eastern part of Jerusalem. Are you conceding that these areas are "Jewish Land"? Or do you maintain that your exception for justifiable retaliation applies to those places as well?
I don't understand this at all. Are you saying that modern Israel is "Christian Palestinian Land" but not "Palestinian Land"? Or do Palestinian Arabs as a group get credit for the genetic continuity of the Christians?
Not necessarily, I'm just trying to understand the principles behind your argument. It sounds like you are saying that if a group of people has "genetic continuity" with some land, then it belongs to that group, but there is an exception if the group voluntarily leaves. Does that sum up your position?
Let’s see if I can use a comparison that you will appreciate. Imagine Israel continues to exist in 6000AD. Now imagine that some Iranians buy some homes, legally, from some of the Jews in the most Jewish part of Israel. They keep to themselves, don’t speak your language, wave their own flag, but you pay no heed. Now imagine one day they do what is written in the OP, and cause the Jews to flee out into the Sinai or something. In how many years does the land of Israel belong exclusively to the Iranians, and the Jews can no longer complain whatsoever, or ever return? 30 years? 50? 100? And why?
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