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PaperclipPerfector  3d ago (text post)   11758 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 9, 2026

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I am extremely skeptical of your claim that proxy attacks do not count.

It seems extraordinarily obvious that proxies do not count, based on common international practice. Russia isn't nuking NATO over Ukraine, and in Vietnam and Korea the US didn't nuke the USSR or China.

I believe this is just convenience, not because of some iron rule of civilization - if you are aiding one side (even with simply intelligence or war material) then you have violated the duty of neutrality. I'm sure you can marshal many counter-examples in international practice - for instance, Hitler cited US violations of neutrality in his speech declaring war on the United States.

Citing Hitler in international law precedent is kinda iffy, as the modern international order is essentially built on a repudiation of Hitler and Imperial Japan. The starting postulate of modern international law is: "Hitler was bad, don't be Hitler."

See my longer reply below to omw for more detail, but this is a long running position in the American approach to international law and morality, especially illustrated by the two World Wars. The Lusitania was attacked, and that was a national tragedy and an affront to American sovereignty, there's no question that Germany would not have been seen as justified if they attacked a gun works in Missouri. Pearl Harbor was a "day that will live in infamy," it was a bad thing that Japan did that, despite the United States taking explicitly anti-Japanese policy positions in the Pacific prior Pearl Harbor.

The Lusitania was attacked, and that was a national tragedy and an affront to American sovereignty

And this was due to a coordinated propaganda effort to get the United States into the war; Lusitania was carrying munitions which as I understand it made it a pretty uncontroversial target and the controversy had more to do with the fact that the Germans did not give the passengers the chance to get into lifeboats before sinking her.

Pearl Harbor was a "day that will live in infamy," it was a bad thing that Japan did that, despite the United States taking explicitly anti-Japanese policy positions in the Pacific prior Pearl Harbor.

Well yeah - it's always bad when you are attacked. Do you expect politicians to give a neutral account of their actions?

I would argue that your reply to omw is basically wrong - for instance, Laos was an ostensibly neutral country during the Vietnam War; the North Vietnamese used that neutral territory to move munitions (secretly, because it was supposedly neutral), and as a result the US bombed Laos (secretly, because it was supposedly neutral). As precedential evidence goes it supports the theory that states that violate their neutrality become fair game.

Similarly, if memory serves, MacArthur wanted to attack China during the Korean War, and, as I understand it, what stopped this was prudential judgments about expanding the war, not concerns about international law.

The reason proxy wars don't always degenerate to large armed conflict is because the relevant powers fighting the proxy war think the proxy war is a better way to engage in the contest than escalating to armed conflict, not because they cannot or "are not allowed."

The reason proxy wars don't always degenerate to large armed conflict is because the relevant powers fighting the proxy war think the proxy war is a better way to engage in the contest than escalating to armed conflict, not because they cannot or "are not allowed."

I tend to agree with this. A blanket rule that a proxy attack somehow "doesn't count" simply doesn't make sense.

Correction:

The starting postulate of modern international law is: "Hitler was bad, use any means necessary to stop any future Hitler. Who is Hitler? We decide who is Hitler."

Russia isn't nuking NATO over Ukraine

  1. In your view, does the US control the Ukrainian military the way that Iran has in the past with Hezbollah?

  2. If you believe that the US does exercise that level of control, if the US ordered the Ukrainian military to start attacking Russian villages, do you believe that Russia would have any justification to retaliate directly against the United States?

  1. Yes, if not more-so, though I think it's better framed as "NATO" or "The Western Bloc" more broadly than just the U.S.A as countries like the UK, France, Poland and Germany have also played important roles in the process. Significant numbers of volunteers/mercenaries from western countries have fought on the Ukrainian side, and no effort has been made to prevent them from transiting to Ukraine. The U.S.A. has provided targeting information, restrained Ukraine from hitting certain targets at certain times and given the green light at others, provided training, and encouraged them to continue fighting. Russia has covertly attempted to hit shipments in Europe, and I'm still not convinced Russia wasn't involved in destroying a Tennessee munitions plant that killed sixteen people, but Russia has stopped short of bombing shipments across the Ukrainian border.

  2. Historically, no, that has not been considered a justification for direct action against a state sponsor. Rumors of Russian arms and intelligence supplied to the Taliban did not lead to strikes against Russia. Chinese "Volunteers" in Korea did not lead to bombing of Red China in the Korean War, nor did we strike against the major Communist bloc nations during Vietnam, nor did the USSR strike America during their own Afghan adventure. The major powers have mostly agreed that they are all allowed to sell weapons and give equipment and information to proxy fighters, even if those proxy fighters are in direct conflict with another major power, without it igniting a major power conflict.

Now, the operative point there doing a lot of heavy lifting is that we're mostly talking about "major powers," and Iran may or may not qualify. Right now Iran is fighting for its sovereignty, trying to avoid becoming a fake country like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Yemen, or Lebanon where everyone (USA, Israel, Iran itself) has agreed that everyone can launch limited bombing campaign on occasion without it qualifying as a "war." Sovereignty and the laws of war have degraded, there's a big list of countries that lack the kind of sovereignty where the international community appear to have decided that a limited bombing campaign is allowed whenever another country judges it necessary.

Yes, if not more-so, though I think it's better framed as "NATO" or "The Western Bloc" more broadly than just the U.S.A as countries like the UK, France, Poland and Germany have also played important roles in the process.

Well let's be specific. According to Iran, Hezbollah has confirmed that it is under the command of Ayatollah Khamenei:

https://wanaen.com/hezbollah-we-are-under-the-command-of-ayatollah-khamenei/

Assuming you believe this, my question is who exactly is commanding the Ukranian military? Apparently you don't think it's President Trump. You believe it's a group of NATO leaders working together informally?

Historically, no, that has not been considered a justification for direct action against a state sponsor.

Ok, so if the United Kingdom funded and armed the Ukranian military; trained them; and commanded them to start attacking Russian villages; and the Ukranian military followed its instructions and attacked Russian villages, massacring thousands of people, then IN YOUR VIEW, Russia would NOT be justified in retaliating against the United Kingdom. Do I understand you correctly?

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