This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
As promised my review of Marx! Blog version for nice photos
We finally did it! I started the first volume of Capital with an offshoot of my philosophy book club last July, and we wrapped up the book late last month. I’m very glad I read Marx, as I think his historical work, and some of his theories are incredibly insightful, most significantly his materialist analysis of history. However, I found myself incredibly frustrated by several of Marx’s assumptions, and his poor form when citing both sources and engaging with other philosophers. While I probably missed and misunderstood a fair chunk of the book , I think I clearly understood The Commodity and the Labor Theory of Value, The Historical Development of the Capitalist System, and Historical Materialism. The second of these is by far the best part of the book.
I would recommend that most serious philosophers of history read this book, and actually not the Communist Manifesto, as the later book is largely irrelevant to modern society, while I found much to take away from Capital that seemed relevant to how the world still works today.
My History with the Book
I’ve almost always been on the left politically, despite my disdain for identity and gender politics, and the disastrous political strategy and lack of discipline of the Democrats, at least in the United States, since the 1970s. In high-school and early college, this meant identifying with people like Sam Harris, but throughout college I began to move further and further left economically, voting for Bernie in the 2020 primary, and holding many communist-adjacent ideals going into graduate school. During this time, I also read Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century with my friend Billy, and found it convincing.
In my second year of graduate school however, one of my roommates gifted me a copy of James C. Scott’s Seeing like a State, which made me reconsider if I actually supported socialism or communism, as more often than not, these forms of government required coercive and damaging forms of political centralization. It was around this time that I suggested to philosophy book club that we read Marx: I wanted to understand what the problems of Capitalism that communism and socialism actually proposed solutions to, and to start to figure out if there might be other ways to address those problems besides coercive state action.
When we finally got around to reading the book nearly three years after I initially suggested it, my political outlook shifted almost totally. I became energy-pilled, and skeptical of modernity and progress in general, and a proponent of degrowth. This will be largely the lens through which I discuss Marx.
The Commodity and the Labor Theory of Value
Unlike the Communist Manifesto, Capital is a critique of Capitalism, not a proposal for an alternative system. Thus, throughout the book Marx is focused exposing the inherent contradictions of capitalism, rather than proposing solutions to those problems. Two key reasons to read this book rather than the Manifesto are that these critiques are still relevant today, and that Marx’s (and his successor’s) solutions often don’t work in practice.
Marx begins the book by attempting to define what value is. He does this in the context of what he calls the commodity, an item like wheat, or coats, or coal that has both a use-value (how useful it is) and an exchange-value (how much it’s worth on the market). These two things can obviously be different, and according to Marx almost always have to be. If the two values were equal you wouldn’t participate in the exchange market because you would just use your commodity. Money was created to facilitate this exchange, as well as a marker of price. This dual nature of money creates the first problem of capitalism: the conflict between the need for the commodity behind money to be stable in value, but also adaptable enough to allow rapid exchange of commodities. I don’t we’ve found a satisfactory solution to this yet, given historical currency collapse following debasement. The current credit/petrodollar system doesn’t seem any more stable either.
The other issue that money creates is the mass production of commodities for their exchange value rather than their use value. This is not necessarily problematic, but tends to lead to things that certainly are. Commodity production creates a dependence on trade for subsistence, which creates fragility. The specialization inherent in specialized commodity production also alienates the laborer from the means of production actually necessary to his or her subsistence. This also leads to what Marx calls “commodity fetishism”, where certain properties are given to commodities that actually are caused by social relations. A good example of this is land rent, which seems like it comes from the “land” or “housing” commodity, but actually comes from the social relation of the landlord-tenant relationship. Neither hunter gatherers nor the Soviet Union had “rent”, so the concept can’t from the commodity in of itself.
Commodity fetishism leads Marx to the question of where value actually comes from, if it’s not from the goods in of themselves. He posits that this use-value comes from a single place: human labor, and that any profit in the capitalist system comes from stealing or appropriating some of this value from the worker. Marx was not the first to come up with this idea: the labor theory of value originates from Adam Smith, but Marx builds on this theory, and in fact the rest of the book is built on this one premise.
Unfortunately, I think the labor theory of value is wrong, or at least incomplete. The first problem with the theory is the issue of supply and demand, or put in another way, that a commodity can have vastly different use-values in different temporal and geographical locations. A winter coat will have much more value in Siberia in the winter than in India in the summer for example. Marx tries to get around this by defining only “social useful” labor as contributing to value, but this is so vague as to be incredibly unconvincing. The second issue comes from how Marx defines natural resources like land, sunlight, or clean water as “free gifts of nature”. These things are not truly free and require immense amounts of non-human labor to maintain and produce. The physiocrats were probably much more right than they were wrong.
Even if we do take the labor theory of value as true, Marx makes some headscratching exclusions. Neither merchants nor managers actually create value, despite the former enhancing use-value by transporting goods to distant markets, and the later creating value by enhancing the value of his charges’ labor.
If I had to replace the Labor Theory of Value with something it would be the Energy Theory of Value. This preserves some aspects of the Labor Theory of Value: human labor is the oldest form of energy transfer in the books, and makes space for the value added by sunlight (solar energy), the water cycle, and fossil fuels. Energy is also incredibly correlated to GDP in the way that labor value is not. Of course this still doesn’t fix the supply and demand problem, but I, unlike Marx, don’t require a totalizing explanation.
The Historical Development of the Capitalist System
After laying his groundwork, Marx then charts the development of the capitalist system, both in theory, and then in practice. Two elements are necessary to seed the creation of this system are separating peasants from their means of subsistence, and a large market for commodity trade. The first is necessary so the worker has no alternative other than to participate in the labor economy, as they are unable to go back to subsistence farming, either by law or because they couldn’t live off the land available. This part of the historical process has happened many times, from Sumner up to the modern day, but Marx most closely studies it in England, where starting with the Tudors, the government of England slowly stripped rights and privileges away from the peasantry that made it more and more difficult for these people to maintain themselves as independent farmers. The second element, commodity trade, is required to give the system a place to sell large amounts of goods, and thus outcompete artisans that don’t benefit from economies of scale.
Early capitalism developed from the medieval guild and workshop system, where the traditional apprentice-journeyman-master relationship began to breakdown and masters began to employ large numbers of journeymen or apprentices that would never have their own workshops. In this stage, masters began to try and more heavily exploit their workers through increasing work hours and reducing pay, but the amount that they could push was heavily limited due to the large amount of power that the workers had over the production process. Many societies, including Ancient Rome, reached this level of capitalist development, but were hamstrung by lack of access to critical technologies that allowed the harnessing of extra-somatic energy.
What allowed the West to break out of the proto-capitalist→collapse cycle was two things: the discovery of the Americas and the advent of truly global trade, and the discovery of fossil fuels. The former opened huge markets that would reward economies of scale much larger than could be served with workshops, and raw materials to serve these larger “factories”. The later allowed the development of machine technologies that would replace the input of human laborers. Marx calls these machines “Capital”. Over time, capitalists are incentivized to replace more and more of their workers with these machines, to increase the investment in what Marx calls “fixed” capital, rather than variable capital. The capitalist might want to do this for a number of reasons. Firstly, machinery tends to be less complicated than artisanal hand crafts to operate, meaning less skilled workers are required to operate it, meaning the capitalist doesn’t need to pay his workers as much and can profit more. Secondly, machinery allows capital to harness extra-somatic energy to do work, which is much cheaper than paying a worker. Marx doesn’t really acknowledge this second reason, but I think it’s an important addition to his argument from an energy perspective. Over time as this process snowballs, workers have less and less power to fight back against the increases in working hours, loss of wages, etc. because the labor required is so unskilled that they are easily replaceable. This kind of labor is also extremely degrading mentally and morally, and leads to psychological harm and alienation.
Capital tends to accumulate in larger and larger conglomerations, which also has the dangerous effect of centralizing political power. Piketty extensively documents this in Capital in the 21st Century: we were only saved from a snowballing capital accumulation by the massive capital destruction of the world wars.
Marx documents this process in England extensively, and most of the second half of the book is taken up with showing that this system does indeed exist in England and has become significantly more exploitative over the last fifty years, to the point where parts of England are beginning to become depopulated because labor practices chew through workers so quickly. The conditions in 19th century English sweatshops were also famously documented by Charles Dickens, and were eventually put a stop to by the government due to the action of labor unions, excessive emigration, the issue of national defense, and moral outrage, among other things.
Today we can see the same behavior from tech companies, as they attempt to replace large chunks of their workforce with AI, perhaps the biggest capital expense in the history of capital expenses, which has already resulted in massive quality of life decreases for those tech workers that remain.
Historical Materialism
The final point I want to discuss is Marx’s development of historical materialism. The philosophy of history can be split into two general schools of thought. Idealism, where ideas drive the development of human societies, was the one I was taught in school. Feudalism→ Capitalism→ Enlightenment→ Democracy→ Global Prosperity. The other school, materialism, posits that the social relations and ideas of human societies are determined primarily by their material conditions. Of course it’s not really an either/or question, it’s a both/and: ideas and material conditions are symbiotically related to each other. But I tend to lean heavily towards the material side of the question: societies with similar material conditions tend to have similar ideas and institutions, and merely transplanting an idea from one society to another with completely different material conditions rarely, if ever leads to that idea taking root. This idea is central to Marx’s understanding of the development of capitalism, which he views as a deterministic process that flows from specific material conditions. While the exact teleological implications of this are not important for this book in particular, historical materialism is important for understanding what kind of policy and moral prescriptions might be effective.
For instance, in this book Marx discusses the interplay between the capitalist system of production and family structure. While some have erroneously interpreted his commentary as advocacy for destruction of the nuclear family, Marx merely is observing that the nuclear family cannot survive an economic system where women are required to work in the same way as men. The fertility decline and all its downstream “causes” (feminism, dating crisis, etc.) are due to this fact. As I have argued extensively before, if we want to reverse the fertility decline, we have to change the arrangement of labor that brought it about. Ideas are not enough.
Actually reading this book
As much as I got a ton out of reading this book, the actual experience of being immersed in Marx wasn’t terribly pleasant. Marx is a bit of snarky asshole, and the fact that I had not read any of his intellectual enemies made this snark confusing rather than funny. He also had a nasty habit of interpreting these same enemies in the worst possible light and of poorly paraphrasing or sometimes almost completely making up sources. I can see where modern leftists get some of their worst tendencies. Because of this, I can only give the book 4/5 stars.
Anyway, thanks for reading, and I would appreciate any corrections on my understanding of Marx and materialism in general.
Nice write up, and big oof for actually reading theory. You just have the book on a shelf with the spine facing out, don't actually open it!
Re. that, if we are being (extremely) charitable you could do some interpretation such like: Merchants aren't moving shit and managers aren't managing shit, merchants own something in some theoretical sense and they pay laborers to do the moving and selling and what have you, managers simply employ proll bosses to do the managing while they get blowjobs in their corner suite, somthing somthing 1920's political cartoon.
I don't think this is clearly stated or well supported in the actual text, but you could make the argument.
I did get a lot of out of it, so it wasn't a total waste, but yeah the theory doesn't really fully clarify things. Back to being a pretty shelf decoration I guess.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link