This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
There's some truth in this but seething contempt is a mischaracterisation. Most Europeans really like and look up to many aspects of America but are afraid and panicky about the path it's gone down, which sometimes comes out, for reasons of ego-protection, in superiority speak.
I suppose that as an American my problem with Europeans' opinions of "the path [America] has gone down" is that the average European really knows very little about what it's like to be an American, what America as a country is about, and why America does it what it does domestically.* But because they watch Hollywood movies or CNN they believe they understand America as well as (or even better than) the average American.
This isn't a unique phenomenon. As someone from the Southeast US, when I lived in the PNW, I would occasionally get knowing smirks when I mentioned my home state as my conversation partner assumed I was a refugee from "Jesusland" or "Dumbfuckistan" or whatever the popular slur was and would make some nasty remarks about the place my family comes from to try to ingratiate themselves with me. You see, they've seen Forrest Gump and Deliverance and finished the Grade 8 social studies unit on the Civil War and Jim Crow, so they know all about where I'm from. Have they visited? Well, no, they drove through once and cracked some jokes with their buddies at the time but they certainly never stopped to look around. Why bother? Everyone knows what those people are like.
*For the record I'm not irked by criticism of American foreign policy from Europeans. I'm not a fan of the GAE myself, so I just agree and shrug and say something to the effect of "if only votes mattered in the empire."
I think many European criticisms of American culture and red states are psychologically grounded in fear of American foreign policy posture and its impacts on the rest of the world. Going on about your Big Gulps, guns and megachurches may not be entirely rational, because in themselves they do not affect us much. But Europe doesn't spend a lot of time thinking itself superior to rural regions of other countries (it doesn't think of them at all). When it comes to America, though, there's sometimes a tendency to focus critically on the traits we see projected out into the world in the form of foreign policy and through multinational companies.
We might be wrong about the details of whatever southeastern state you're from, but we're not wrong about the material effects the US people's choices have on us, and sometimes that disgruntlement comes out wrong.
Sorry, might post might have been unclear. I was saying that European mockery of the US is analogous to NE or NW USians' mockery of Southeastern USians. In both cases, the mockery is rooted in an overestimation of one's understanding of the target of mockery, as well as a feeling of superiority that inoculates against any curiosity about the target.
As I said in another post, I think it's perfectly fair for Europeans to criticize American foreign policy, and I do not take it personally when I hear such criticisms.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
If one looks at social media on this topic, it is exactly Europeans offering these criticisms of American foreign policy and getting, in return, incoherent rage from the same Americans who just previously were boasting about how the American foreign policy is completely different now and the mistakes of Iraq (the previous time there was an American administration that was shitting on Europe, or large parts of it, for failing to support a dumb war) were surely not going to be repeated.
I don't doubt that. I was speaking about my own IRL experiences. Social media is designed to maximize heat, and the lowest quality members of the new Right live there 24/7. I dont feel compelled to defend the opinions of those people, nor do I expect you to defend the opinions of Europeans who post nothing but "do Americans really?" tweets and posts all day.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link