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Why do a lot of women not like acknowledging the practical aspects of dating? By this I mean that women appear to be put off by me simply discussing:
Of course I'm not discussing these topic with women I'm trying to actually date, I'm not that autistic. But if you're trying to actually find a partner to settle down and have kids with, how do you not take all of these into account? Not only does it reek of impracticality, but on an even deeper level, it appears that any attempt to practically model the dating world at all produces a negative female reaction.
(Maybe it's because some of these women don't ever intend on having kids and therefore don't ever have to be realistic about dating.)
I can assure you that a large number of men say the same, even intelligent and reasonable ones.
As a personal example: while I was still in India, I was seriously contemplating minor plastic surgery. I wasn't depressed, I wasn't in a rush; I'd deferred it over a year because my parents had thrown a fit, and they wanted me to try and lose weight and get fitter the old fashioned way (which I did). I'd seen a surgeon. I had a tentative date.
I broached the topic to my closest friend group back home. All men. Handsome men. Smart men. Good with the ladies, even if some of them are clearly in a different league. When I'm with them, I'm acutely aware that I'm not the most handsome man in the group, not even the tallest (there's a real big mf in there). I insist that this is not cause for malignant envy or jealousy, I love those guys. They've been nothing but good to me, and vice versa. They've often told me that they're slightly jealous of me, because of the things I'm good at, or just happen to have a natural talent in. Some of us are taller, some of us are richer, some of us are less depressed. But we're all smart, funny motherfuckers, if I say so myself.
Yet, when I broached the topic, and told them that I'd made up my mind to go ahead? They were surprised, somewhat dismayed, and begged me to reconsider. I was ready for this. I had pre-empted their concerns. I told them:
Their initial reaction was not subtle male intrasexual competition. Nor was their followup response:
They told me I should go to the gym, that I should diet better and get new clothes and groom myself well. I pointed out, quite accurately, that those were not mutually exclusive options, and that I was actually pursuing all of them. This isn't a group of hotter girls telling their slightly chubby friend that the no-makeup "natural" look suits her, or jealous hoes telling their hotter friend that a bob-cut would be a great idea. We don't do this. We are sane, well-adjusted men. We try to lift each other up, instead of pulling each other down like pubic crabs might do to your dating potential.
Their reaction wasn't a lie, not even a subconscious attempt to keep me down. Unlike the feminine example above, going to the gym and getting a good haircut is still good advice. It just ignores the other options on the table.
At this point, they were slightly tongue-tied. They were too honest to tell me that looks didn't matter. They were too honest to tell me that I was misrepresenting myself. They just genuinely wanted what was best for me, and were worried that I was jumping the gun. They sighed, and we moved on. I am happy with that outcome, though I was much less happy about being called back to work on minimal notice, which meant I had to defer the procedure into the indefinite future.
My point is that these are good men, intelligent and introspective men. They know how to read the room. Yet, they are often blind to their own blessings, and quick to discount them. I don't blame them, some of that impulse comes from genuine kindness, from an urge to not let people they care about feel even worse about themselves than they already do.
I try to be kind too, but I am much less willing to trade it off for honesty. This extends to self-assessment and critique: I am painfully honest about my own strengths or weaknesses. I never tell someone complaining about being short that height doesn't matter. I don't tell people who worry that they're not smart enough that intelligence doesn't matter, that it's all hard work. I don't tell my buddies who ask me how I make people laugh so easily that it's a skill that's trivial to pick up, or that much of it isn't innate. I think this makes me a good ethnographer, and I'm self-aware enough to know that some reading this might consider this puffery and self-aggrandizement. Fuck you. I know better, I hedge no more than I need to.
I read papers. I review the old OkCupid blogs. I have a good idea of what works. I am also aware of my own neuroses, that this impulse arises because I grew up with a far more handsome younger brother and best friend (he's part of this friend group). I used to feel much worse about my looks, I would seethe with jealousy. That pot boiled over, I'm mostly at peace with myself. It's incredibly ironic that my brother came out as gay, which makes his appeal to the ladies largely moot. This doesn't change the factual situation, my observations on the difference that 95th+ percentile attractiveness made were very real. The emotional valence might have blunted with time and growing into my own skin, but the truth doesn't change because of it.
I've known plenty of intelligent men who think "SMV" is a tainted, sexist concept. I acknowledge that this is more likely to be a view held by women, but I am sensible enough not to go around talking about SMV with most women, not even most men.
I have found that the majority of women in my sociocultural milieu are reasonably aware of this, in India or otherwise. Then again, they're disproportionately doctors, and you'd expect them to know better. This is probably the biggest delta between sexes, but mostly because men genuinely do age better and hold their attractiveness longer on average. I'm probably more attractive as a partner now than I'd have been 5 years back, and it's going to be a while till I'll truly peak. And that peak? It leads to a plateau and gentle decline.
Finally, it's important to disentangle socially approved canned lines from revealed preferences. Women are much more likely to obsess over makeup, hair dyes, cosmetic procedures. At a deep level, people tend to understand much more strongly than they let on, be it in public or to themselves. I understand the discomfort, I just power through it.
My point, assuming there is a point, is that I think it's unfair to single out women as being unique here. This topic is incredibly uncomfortable for most people. It's socially taboo.
I wish it wasn't, which is why I'm talking about it. The taboo prevents actions that genuinely help, even if, to a degree, this is a Red Queen Race. Teaching everyone to run the same percentage faster doesn't change who wins the race, you just burn more calories on the way. On the other hand, being sensible about your dating prospects or reproductive potential does bring non-rivalrous benefits to yourself and others.
Oh well. If my willingness to be clear-eyed about these things gives me alpha, then I'm not that fussed about other people being idiots, even if my innate honesty and inability to sit by when people are being wrong (on the internet or IRL) often makes me speak up. That's what I'm doing right now.
I feel it is a matter of pride. People are supposed to be proud of how they look, even if they acknowledge that they don't look the best they should still feel some attachment to their face.
Going through a plastic surgery is "humiliating", it shows an willingness to sacrifice parts of yourself for validation from others.
"What kind of man is so desperate for love that he lengthens his leg and does plastic surgery with it's risks just so he would be loved."
This is why people don't mind plastic surgery for those who have been disfigured through accidents, it's not dishonorable for them.
A very very extreme example, similar to this would be like kissing a penis to become beautiful.
Maybe such things exist in human society to prevent a red queen race or to prevent enslavement from stronger people.
Broadly speaking, doing things which can cause race to bottom are supposed to feel humiliating.
This is the origin of terms like, "simp" and "pick me" people do not want race to bottom and would make fun of people who seem to engage in it.
I am just explaining the reasons for what I precieve are people's natural instincts, this is not an endorsement of those instincts.
I think that is remarkably unlikely. You don't see a concerned propaganda effort to stop men going to the gym, which is, at least in part, a Red Queen's Race too. Sure, more muscle mass is good for your health, all else being equal, but if you're a gym-freak, you're comparing yourself to other gym-freaks. I concede that there's a point if we consider people using dangerously high doses of anabolic steroids or other PEDs, but then again, the people who do them to that degree are actively making themselves uglier. Women don't demand six packs, and they mostly tend to shy away from roided out monstrosities. Decreasing marginal returns kick in surprisingly quick, and you can end up with outright negative returns, all while reducing your lifespan.
I am glad you clarified this, because the instincts you mentioned make me want to bash my head against a wall. Mostly from a transhumanist perspective, I take that seriously.
Just to clarify it's complete arm chair philosophising I don't have anything to cite.
It's not fully rational, i think the origin of this feeling from an evolutionary sense was to prevent a race to the bottom but evolution is very dumb and doesn't intellectually understand what a red queen race is. So people get a vague sense of intuition about what things are and are not race to bottom and hence dishonorable.
As a society trading time for health and looks is accepted. Trading slight chance of bad health for looks is not accepted.
Using steroids so they harm your health is also not accepted.
Doing things in general just for signalling is disliked everywhere. Such as reading books just to get girls.
Trading time in general for things is very accepted.
Plastic surgery falls in both signalling and a race to the bottom.
Edit: Actually fashion gets a pass so race to the bottom is better. Plastic surgery doesn't count as signalling.
I don't have any advice about these things one way or other, though if someone came to me and asked me about plastic surgery, i would recommend them not to do it because I have a bias for recommending against something when I am not sure.
Still in truth I am completely neutral to the issue and have no opinion.
Now if it was something which could extend your biological life, you can bet I would fully support it. I am very much in transhumanist camp for living forever, even if you live as a brain in a jar. Don't believe in substrate independence so don't support living in a computer.
Hmm. I think you're still underestimating how dumb evolution is. It is remarkably bad at preventing Red Queen races. In fact, I'd be so bold to say that most of what evolution had done is a Red Queen race. The textbook examples come from biology!
Peacocks and their inconvenient, oversized, flamboyant tails. Immune systems and the pathogens that try to get around them. Predators getting faster to catch their prey, and the prey getting quicker so as to not get eaten.
I don't see it being applicable to humans. At best, you can make a case for cultural evolution, which operates on much tighter timescales. The problem with that approach is that I can still point to countries like South Korea or China, where plastic surgery is far more common, almost expected even. The latter country has 1.3 billion people, so if this is a popularity contest, it's the West that's being weird about things.
Fair enough. If someone else wants to live forever too, I'm content to live and let live. I hope you find a comfy jar.
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Being physically fit has value beyond just being higher on the relative scale of attractiveness. Facial shape doesn't appear to have it.
Ahem:
Anyway, the point isn't whether a given procedure or intervention brings only relative or absolute good to the person or wider society, it's that there's selective ignorance and cultural blindspots around some parts of it, including advice that would improve things in a non-rivalrous manner. Especially fertility oriented topics.
I could muster a defense of plastic surgery from the perspective of wider society, but my heart isn't in it, and I'm busy frantically working on a competitive submission. As a terrible existence proof: I'm sure the old grannies I meet while they're delirious would love to meet a handsome young psychiatrist. Right now, if they go that far, I have to question their reality orientation against my better judgement.
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