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PaperclipPerfector  6d ago (text post)   22817 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 27, 2026

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I've seen this kind of notion argued in many different contexts, and I don't understand what's the disconnect. Because OF COURSE the LLM has an internal model of the chessboard in the system; that's the only reason it could possibly make moves that are correct at a rate better than chance

I disagree, another possible reason is that simply makes a good (but imperfect) guess as to what's likely to be the next move after a sequence of moves, based on all the chess games stored in its database.

So for example, if the LLM is playing black and you open e4, it's pretty likely that the LLM will respond e5 or c5 for basically the same reason it would likely output "lamb" after "Mary had a little" and "California" after "The Golden Gate bridge is located in"

based on all the chess games stored in its database.

It doesn't have a "database," this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what's going on under the hood. With LLMs solving open math problems, I'm puzzled that the discourse remains around "it's just doing what it's seen before" with various levels of unsound understanding.

It doesn't have a "database," this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what's going on under the hood.

Maybe I am using the wrong word. What do you call the set of data used to train an LLM? Is it just "training data"?

I'm puzzled that the discourse remains around "it's just doing what it's seen before"

I think a more accurate statement is "It's just making predictions based on what it's seen before." Of course the word "just" might not being doing justice to the capabilities of an LLM. Because they are definitely very impressive.

But anyway, my point is that it's possible for an LLM to make legal chess moves without actually modeling chess. Do you dispute this?

What do you call the set of data used to train an LLM? Is it just "training data"?

The point is that the training data is not accessible at inference time. To the extent that being trained on chess data gives the LLM information about how to respond to a particular opening, it's because the LLM has learned that information, similarly to how a human studying openings has.

But anyway, my point is that it's possible for an LLM to make legal chess moves without actually modeling chess. Do you dispute this?

Sure, in the same way that it's possible for a human to make legal chess moves without modeling chess:

  • you could just get lucky and make random moves that happen to be legal
  • you might know how all the pieces move and that the goal is a checkmate but have basically no understanding of strategy (I am here btw)
  • the above, but you might have studied a book on chess openings and endgames

It's unclear to me at which point even a human can be said to "model" chess.

The point is that the training data is not accessible at inference time. To the extent that being trained on chess data gives the LLM information about how to respond to a particular opening, it's because the LLM has learned that information, similarly to how a human studying openings has.

I'm not sure I understand your point here.

Here's a claim I am making:

A possible reason why an LLM makes a legal chess move is that it simply makes a good (but imperfect) guess as to what's likely to be the next move after a sequence of moves, as a result of all machine learning from all the chess games in the training data.

Do you dispute this claim?

It's unclear to me at which point even a human can be said to "model" chess.

Here's an example of what I think it means to "model" chess. Suppose you are playing postal chess with someone -- instead of sitting at a chess board, you send each other postcards with chess moves written on them. After a few postcards go back and forth, you decide it would be helpful to set up a chessboard in order to keep track of what's going on and for each move, you make a corresponding move on the chessboard. Or, if you are really talented, you envision a chessboard in your head. Those are models. They are representations of the game which enable you to analyze the game.

Do you dispute this claim?

Only to the extent that this claim applies to humans too, so it's not clear to me how this is supposed to draw a line between what humans do and what LLMs do.

After a few postcards go back and forth, you decide it would be helpful to set up a chessboard in order to keep track of what's going on and for each move

Okay. But we know that LLMs can keep track of the game by printing the current state of the board and updating each time you or it make a move. So in what way do LLMs not model chess?

Only to the extent that this claim applies to humans too, so it's not clear to me how this is supposed to draw a line between what humans do and what LLMs do.

Well the claim I was responding to is that LLMs MUST be modelling chess, because otherwise they would not be able to make legal moves at a rate better than chance. This claim pretty clearly seems to be incorrect.

Beyond that, I don't really understand your point. Here's an example to show what I mean:

There used to be these books you could buy, I think they were called "Informers." They contained records of all IM or higher level chess games for some time period. In theory, you could buy a set of them and have a big library of Informers. Ok, suppose you are playing postal chess with someone and you observe that they make a series of legal moves. Most likely, the person has a chess board set up in their house which they are using to analyze the game. Possibly, they have no chessboard set up and they are just looking up similar games in the Informers and playing whatever moves most masters played in similar positions.

So regardless of whether you are playing a human or playing an LLM, it's potentially possible for your opponent to make legal moves, even a series of legal moves, without modeling the game.

In my non-expert view, LLMs don't create sophisticated models the way humans do. Perhaps chess isn't the best example of this since there was no chess in the ancestral environment. But they definitely can and do create rudimentary models and I think that there's a good chance this will improve a lot in the future.

But we know that LLMs can keep track of the game by printing the current state of the board and updating each time you or it make a move.

I don't know that, but I'm certainly willing to agree that's potentially possible. That's basically how the LLM modeled the simple game I had invented for purposes of testing it. Once it started doing creating a rudimentary model along these lines, it stopped making illegal moves.

So in what way do LLMs not model chess?

By not modeling chess. I mean, even if one allows that an LLM can set up a rudimentary model along the lines you describe, it's not carved into stone anywhere that they must do so.

By not modeling chess. I mean, even if one allows that an LLM can set up a rudimentary model along the lines you describe, it's not carved into stone anywhere that they must do so.

I genuinely don't understand what we're talking about anymore. It's not carved into stone that a human must set up a rudimentary model to play a game of chess either. Is there any distinction, in your view, between LLMs and humans in the chess scenario?

I genuinely don't understand what we're talking about anymore.

Agreed. Let me ask you this: Now that you understand what I meant with the word "database," do you disagree with anything I have said?

Is there any distinction, in your view, between LLMs and humans in the chess scenario?

Yes, as far as I know, at the moment humans are capable of making and using more sophisticated models of chess than are LLMs. (To the extent that LLMs are capable of making models along the lines you described.)

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