The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:
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Requests for advice and / or encouragement. On basically any topic and for any scale of problem.
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Updates to let us know how you are doing. This provides valuable feedback on past advice / encouragement and will hopefully make people feel a little more motivated to follow through. If you want to be reminded to post your update, see the post titled 'update reminders', below.
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Advice. This can be in response to a request for advice or just something that you think could be generally useful for many people here.
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Encouragement. Probably best directed at specific users, but if you feel like just encouraging people in general I don't think anyone is going to object. I don't think I really need to say this, but just to be clear; encouragement should have a generally positive tone and not shame people (if people feel that shame might be an effective tool for motivating people, please discuss this so we can form a group consensus on how to use it rather than just trying it).
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Not really. I entered med school because that was the default expectation, and I couldn't think of better alternatives (I was nudged, not forced into it). I discovered I genuinely like psychiatry as a subject, whereas I genuinely loathe most other branches, particularly internal medicine or surgery. Not for me.
In hindsight, I discovered I do like programming a little. But I found this out too late, and I wouldn't have been brave enough to choose that after high school. It possibly would have been a bad choice for me.
I don't know about mental fortitude on my end dawg. My ADHD diagnosis is not fake. It just didn't exist then, nor did I receive any medication. It's not like I manifested a work-ethic and appreciation for higher education of my own volition, I just found out that the drugs solved problems that nothing else could.
Yes, but you need to remember that I'm a psychiatry resident. I don't get to choose what I do or where I go for the next 2 or 3 years. This placement is unusually awful, and I can't just tell them they need to send me elsewhere. I am optimistic that after 5 months, I'll be somewhere much, much quieter.
I expect that if/when I'm more senior, and as @Throwaway05 suggests, more experienced, it won't be so bad. I have a decent idea of what I'd like to do (General Adult psychiatry, probably). That is a long time away. The British system is retarded.
I've only read the V. And the ICD-10 and 11. Sorry for being a poser. Don't worry, memorizing them gave me mental illnesses too, or at least made my existing ones worse.
I diagnose them with moderate to severe intellectual disability. Or I would, if I could. Instead, I ignore them, and feel glad about the fact that 99% of people don't have such awful takes. There's plenty of room for critique of psychiatry, which I have done myself, but it's not a fraud. I treat sensible criticism with respect.
I know what residency is, I’m just loosely thinking about your career trajectory more broadly. Residency can’t be pretty brutal, sorry to hear what you’re going through.
I haven’t read the ICD-10. My mother was a homemaker all her life but her small library was filled to the brim with a lot of medical literature that she liked to read and study about (for some reason). Occasionally I picked things up here and there.
But don’t be down on yourself to think you didn’t have the bravery to go into programming when you entered fucking medical school. Passion is what allows you to endure and if you’re going through that, you’re a very capable guy. My like of healthcare as a subject matter rests at the floor. I couldn’t do what you’re doing.
Hahahahaha.
There’s actually quite a sizable minority of people in the US that truly believe that. Maybe it’s the case that psychiatrists over-diagnose people(?); don’t know. I’ve never seen one. A lot of people seem to think psychiatrists are just glorified counselors that deal drugs. I don’t know if it’s still a common practice to think you can establish a working hypothesis on someone in 15 minutes. That seems completely absurd to me. But I’d take your word on the matter as a psychiatrist over mine any day of the week.
Really hope you do well.
Thank you. Yeah, it can be an uphill struggle. But when I feel like crying myself to sleep, I remind myself I didn't become an OBGYN resident and the smiles sort themselves out. Psychiatry is probably the least taxing? I don't know, maybe the Public Health or Occupational Medicine people sleep at their cubicle all day.
Very kind of you to say. I will note that being a programmer in India is not a good time. The opposite even. If I'd grown up in the States, maybe I'd have been more open to the idea, but life is what it is. I even seriously considered a career pivot and was grinding MIT OCW and Leetcode (I did one medium successfully!) before I matched into psych, but I desisted when I realized that GPT-4 was better than me and would stay that way. Good call. I'd be so screwed right now.
Goodness. I only read that stuff because I'm paid to. Tell her it's not too late to become a shrink, I've seen junior doctors in their late 40s in the UK. Why do all of that for free?
Psychiatrists both overdiagnose and underdiagnose people. We misdiagnose people too. We're only human. Some of us are better than others (for example, I'm worse). It depends on a lot of considerations, and most importantly, we don't really have blood tests for depression or a brain scan we can do to declare schizophrenia. You have to consider all kinds of nitty-gritty details like the tradeoff between sensitivity and specificity, ROCs, cost-benefit analyses etc, inter-rater validity for diagnoses etc. But there is no obvious rampant abuse where I can see it.
Thank you! So do I :(
It’s an attitude that certainly helps. I won’t say I was ever strongly interested in psychiatry per se, but one thing I always paid attention to in my intellectual development was publishing houses and the topics they often target. I was obsessed several years ago by reading a lot of what came out of Guilford Press and read a concise copy of the DSM-IV that was really popular. I loved it and it caused me to go into a real deep dive into that world for a few weeks before I moved onto other topics.
Any reason why?
Indeed. The tech sector is getting crushed quite badly from what my friends are experiencing right now. And they are ‘not’ fans of the whole AI thing at all. I know how to code here and there but as far as large-scale enterprise projects, yeah; no. I don’t want that on my shoulders. I’m content being a fully middle of the road kind of guy. Mentally I could handle that kind of pressure. I’ve always had the grit to face down stress and pain, but it doesn’t mean I enjoy it. I hate it as much as anyone else does.
I think she just had a passion for that stuff, the same one that I’m lacking to go into a field like that. She’s deceased now but when I was a kid all throughout life she’d be keeping up with that stuff. I only read a fraction of it in broad strokes.
Now this is my shit right here. How do psychiatrists gauge whether they’re more or less on path to following a proper diagnosis? I still imagine there’s a rigorous process in place that’s more than just professional guesswork (although I’m sure sometimes it seems that way, it’s multidimensional).
Do you think it’s possible to have something like blood tests for depression in the future? I’ve read quite a lot on Behavioral Genetics (not trying to get far away from psychiatry) but is it possible there will ever be a cross-disciplinary convergence where psychiatry may be subsumed into some greater branch of genetics? When I read studies about how divorce is heritable (or rather it shares a strong genetic link) or just how strongly our biology determines personality and behavior, it’s startling at times. Especially if parenting really doesn’t matter all that much, then maybe fields like psychiatry and pharmacotherapy or pharmacogenomics may dominate the healthcare of the future. Fascinating to me.
You got this, 😤 ❤️ 👊.
Oh boy. This is a long and tough topic. So Medicine is hard. Some people get that some people don't but it needs to be carefully examined.
Some questions are harder than you think, and we don't realize it because we take so much for granted.
So like what is a disease anyway? What is sepsis?
The later is a question still under investigation even though treating sepsis is a core hospital task.
What about a run of the mill bacteria infection? Well turns out usually we are just pattern matching or guessing based off of what died to the antibiotic. An actual culture is useless or impossible most of the time. Spirochetes took forever to identify because splashing shit with these colors we usually use didn't work (yes that's what we do! Random dye!).
A lot of stuff might be an infection and we just don't know yet because who knows what caused it. It's a miracle we figure out prions existed for instance.
So sewing and cutting and surgery is great and all but the noodly thinking bits are an important and interesting part of medicine. Cue nosology.
But you asked about psychiatry though.
That's a further complicated question. The brain is like the most complicated thing in existence, and mental health is the most complicated and multifactorial aspect of medicine.
The specifics become specific, it is why doctors have jobs after all. Some diseases have neuro-chemical markers, brain imaging findings, genetic components and other "hard stuff." This is evolving and of unclear clinical significance.
Sometimes we go off what facilitates communication - depression is hard to define. If everyone including the patients agrees what depression is then you've found it. Sometimes this becomes a cultural negotiation.
Sometimes clinical response is king - if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and gets slaughtered by medication like a duck then you got it.
To TLDR it - explaining the specifics of a diagnosis in a thorough way is easy to convey to people in the field who have a shared assumption base, but to people outside of it a lot will be lost in translation and it can look like some stupid questionnaire defines everything.
The rigor isn't what we want but it's more than you fear.
Well differential diagnosis is always a struggle to deal with because symptoms may be compatible with a handful of underlying conditions. Common symptoms are also more often than not precursors to more narrowly defined symptoms that can be isolated to a diagnosis. Medicine is a hugely multifactorial discipline and it’s understandable why seemingly simple things involve a complex decision making process. Seems like it’s still messy enough that a lot of it is educated guesswork. How much would you say the average person takes for granted that particular matters are “settled” as far as concepts like “health,” and “disease,” go and that these debates don’t exist behind closed doors between doctors? In other words do these disagreements and debates only belong to relative edge cases or is it pretty widespread across ailments?
Do physicians generally “know” or feel with a high degree of confidence when they’ve correctly zeroed in on what the problem is? I’m just imagining the mental flowchart-like references to chasing a problem down isn’t actually that much different from a mechanic who chases down the chain of failure in a car, or a technician who’s chasing down a motherboard failure on a laptop. By what clinical standard do absurd ideas like Drapetomania, or genetic feeblemindedness, or pathological altruism fail to pass scrutiny? Is it simply because our culture doesn’t legitimize such assumptions?
One book I loved reading years ago was Atul Gawande’s Checklist Manifesto, and it was striking how it effective it’s been proven in medical settings. It’s a great thing to have in a discipline that involves some of the most complex pattern matching capabilities needed that are known to man.
Also, why was it a miracle prions were discovered?
It depends on the thing, but it is important to keep in mind that for many problems diagnosis is not important (especially in psychiatry). Fixing a problem is important, but a clear diagnosis? Nah. In psychiatry most problems are fixed by an SSRI or an antipsychotic - who cares if they have schizophrenia, schizoaffective, or bipolar disorder if the solution is the same. Who cares what the cause of the hypertension is? Rule out some important things to rule out, and then move on.
Also because the level of specificity - sick, infection, bacterial infection, anaerobic bacterial infection, a specific organism, the specific genetic profile of the specific strain of that organism, all of these are accurate diagnosis, but you can stop early and often should.
So it's hard to answer some of these questions without being reductive or ponderous.
Our tools aren't magic - for a long time the start of the art for identifying bacteria was dumping dye on it. Identifying something as weird as your own bits during slightly weird shit is hard as hell.
But diagnosis is about defining what the problem is, right? Scope, range, severity, etc. In psychiatry I’d imagine it’s even more difficult than a standard internal medicine practice or surgery for instance. Last I’d read, some reports have indicated that most SSRI’s probably don’t work, which I assume demonstrates how robust the placebo effect can be. A bandaid doesn’t cure a cut. A bandaid creates a space for the wound to heal on its own. And for some injuries that’s all that’s necessary from a medical perspective. Suppose the medical efficacy for SSRI’s were 100% though. The treatment takes the form of a bandaid more than it does a fix if you ask me. The latter isn’t exactly what I’m asking a psychiatrist to do, that’s a near impossible task; I’m only saying that’s more what I’d liken it to.
Should the average person be surprised about the fragility and active debate over active cases? I don’t think there should be concern or worry over it TBF, what other alternative is there to trust when you’re in agonizing pain?
I mean lifestyle interventions are always the first recommendation for everything - lose weight and your BP improves. Socialize and exercise more and your depression improves. People don't do these things so we hit the second line interventions of actual medicine that are a band-aid not a solution.
In the case of SSRIs, if one doesn't work....you just switch to the next thing. Psych has more viable first and second line agents than most disciplines. Even if hit rates are lower it isn't a big deal.
Additionally, depression is more of a syndrome than a disease - shit life syndrome, major depression due to a cardiac problems, classic melancholic depression, all of these things manifest slightly differently but more or less the same and zero percent chance we have a full understanding of the underlying pathophysiology. Shit life syndrome likely responds poorly to medication, but how are you going to define that and separate it for the purposes of research?
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