This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Sure it's really easy! He was investigated and charged by a Republican state attorney in Florida and a jury of his peers in Florida found him guilty after looking at all the evidence, the specifics of the legal statutes he was charged under, and his best arguments in defense.
Then upon appealing
So there you go, he's guilty.
It's honestly impressive how far you're willing to go on occasion to avoid having a thought.
Did the Republican Florida state attorney also not have a thought? The Florida jury members? The Florida appeals court?
Seems more likely you're upset they disagreed with you.
Drejka cannot be the aggressor, because McGlockton initiated their altercation with a brutal physical assault that caught Drejka completely unawares and laid him prone on the ground. This does not mean that Drejka was subsequently justified in shooting him in response; it was a very iffy shoot, and as I argued at considerable length at the time, Drejka's conviction was an acceptable outcome. It's actually a fairly interesting case, and I reference it often to provide illumination on the subject of personal defense with firearms.
Drejka's subsequent conviction and its justification are irrelevant to the point at hand, though, which is that Drejka was not the aggressor, which is one of the criteria you were looking for when selecting this example.
More options
Context Copy link
We actually discussed that case pretty thoroughly here back in the day. My understanding of the legal argument was that while McGlockton absolutely escalated to violence and plausibly threatened Drejka's life, Drejka's actions initiated the altercation, thereby limiting or losing his presumptive right to self-defense. There is a reason CCers are advised to act like the most peaceful man alive. I don't particularly disagree with the conviction, though 20 years for manslaughter seems a bit excessive. Much less understandable shootings in my state tend to go around 15.
Worth noting that McGlockton's family asked for the max of 30, and neither of his parents offered grace or mercy or forgiveness. I guess those government agencies that threaten families into "lowering tension and division" only apply to white people.
And I know all that because I followed the case and came to my own decision instead of just posting the first authoritative-looking thing I found on google to score a deflection point in an argument.
If you disagree then you disagree, but the state attorney, jury and appeals court all said otherwise that under Florida law he was guilty. Those are not "authoritative looking things", they are the authority. He is as a matter of fact undeniably been legally found as guilty.
The US is a free nation with strong legal rights for the accused, we aren't China or Russia. Our legal system is so generally reliable that many (including many users here!) even feel safe relying on the heuristic that just an indictment is enough to assume guilt in a casual conversation. Something I disagree with, I think conviction is the stage that happens but it is a sign that our legal system is reliable.
I don't think you even read my post.
Fine.
Do you think there is a difference between "found guilty in court" and "I personally looked at the facts and concluded he was guilty"?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link