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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   32830 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 20, 2023

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I wager if you asked the person from MLive Media who wrote that statement to choose to become a Nazi right now, in the sense that he truly, in his heart of hearts, believed that Jews were sub-humans who ought to be exterminated, he couldn't do it, even under threat of death or torture. The best he could do is to play-act the role.

I've never been convinced by this line of reasoning. Like, the conclusion is supposed to be, "...and, therefore, one's beliefs aren't a choice," but I just don't see how that follows. Instead, the only conclusion I see is, "Some beliefs are held strongly enough that asking for them to change (perhaps even under threat of death or torture) will not result in said change." It doesn't seem to imply anything about whether the strong belief is chosen or not.

I suppose, can you give me an example of a thing that a person can choose? I think, at bottom, the above argument is a facile face on what is really just hard determinism at its core (from people who can't bear to "choose" to live with the consequences of real hard determinism).

I suppose, can you give me an example of a thing that a person can choose? I think, at bottom, the above argument is a facile face on what is really just hard determinism at its core (from people who can't bear to "choose" to live with the consequences of real hard determinism).

I can't give an example, and that's the entire point; there is no such example, by my lights. And I don't see how determinism enters into it. Whether the universe is deterministic or there's some sort of cosmic dice that get rolled for physical interactions that make future states impossible to reliably predict based on the current state, one still doesn't have choice on the states of one's brain, which are the direct antecedents of one's apparent "choices." I didn't choose to have a brain that tells my finger muscles to type out this paragraph, for instance, and that's the case even if the atoms in my brain aren't following some sort of deterministic set of physical rules but rather being affected by some sort of truly random process.

It's more a question of dualism than determinism, which are related concepts but not identical. Dualism makes room for a soul to manipulate our neurons, allowing us to make true choices, but also requires a belief in the supernatural. Without it, we have to accept that whatever experience of "choosing" one has in their consciousness is a consequence of the behavior of the atoms in one's brain, which may be deterministic or not, but either way aren't controlled by oneself. One could argue that one's current brain state is "controlled" by past choices made by one's conscious mind, but that just moves the whole thing back a step, which can continue all the way back to the point where one became conscious for the first time as a baby.

Schrödinger equation's equation is deterministic, but the output concerning physical observables includes randomness. So, your distinction concerning randomness isn't really relevant. Nor is dualism the only mechanism by which the ability to choose could be said to exist. Typically, 'determinism' is short-hand for the opposite position of 'free will'.

But yeah, as I suspected, you pretty much commit yourself to hard determinism... at least until this discussion is finished.

Nothing personnel eh?

How about you just explain what you mean? Because currently your posts look like shorelines with at least three feet of vertical elevation above the high tide line.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

You speak very condescendingly about hard determinism, but never actually explain what you mean by that term. Even after 07mk said he doesn't see determinism entering the equation, you still just sneer at the concept like everyone should know exactly what you mean. In the past when I have seen people do this, it is as a bluff. Either a sort of shit test to see if their partner knows as much as them, or in the hopes their confidence and condescension will convince others to assume they know what they are talking about and drop it. But that goes against the spirit of this place, and the speak plainly rule.

I don't want to report you though, because I might be wrong or you might have done it by accident or a thousand other possibilities, so I'd rather just talk it out. I do think you know what you are talking about, but I would also like to know what you are talking about.

Typically, 'determinism' is short-hand for the opposite position of 'free will'.

So I was right, it was a bluff. Four posts deep now and you are still feigning superiority and dodging instead of just explaining what hard determinism is (both times you added the word hard, implying a difference from standard determinism) and why you sneer at it.

I don't think you're right; I don't think you've made a claim at all. You're just acting smug while simultaneously acting like you can't understand anything.

You can take "hard" to be shorthand for "not compatibilism".

Please say something relevant.

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