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Good point. So your model is what exactly? All or almost all men are ephebophiles, and all or almost all women oppose this? What percent do you think? I just haven't seen strong evidence of sex polarization on this topic, in data, so I wasn't thinking of a massive gender effect size when reasoning.
Most men are ephebophiles, some women oppose this out of naked self-interest, most women oppose it out of a tendency towards groupthink, women have extreme social leverage over men, and there's a baptists-and-bootleggers coalition between feminists in the muck of the groupthink and conservative parents who have no personal interest in finding a partner but do have an interest in marginally protecting their daughters' chastity.
How do you know these things? Interesting hypotheses, although I have seen data to the contrary ... in particular I have seen data indicating most men prefer women over 20. More interesting to me is your model of woman's social leverage and groupthinking. What are you basing that on? You sound very sure of yourself there with all these details. How do you know these things? It sounds like a compelling model to me, basically that the age of consent is high because of spiteful women and bad parents. The groupthink part could be correct but I want to be careful about not assuming too much and making excuses for people's actions. Ultimately each individual is responsible for their own beliefs and actions. While they will be influenced by the input of others, this is only ever partial, and they are still responsible for how they respond to peer influence. And furthermore the average direction of peer influence should precede peer influence, naturally.
Most data I'm familiar with on female attractiveness shows a peak in the mid-teens, despite a strong social desirability bias to the contrary (which I think readily explains the minority of exceptions). Moreover the historic and current reasoning behind the age of consent is well-documented; you can just go out and look at what rhetoric is raised in its defense, who supports it and why. Your model, conversely, is completely alien to me; I'm not sure how one winds up imagining a world where men selected an age of consent based on what they find attractive.
That 4chan chart with the loli cartoon girls touching the bars? That was fake. You never checked the citation? It was fake.
I have tried to have debates on it and I can't. There are no good arguments in favor of high ages of consent as far as I can find. Just a bunch of people who threaten to kill you for looking like an ephebophile (it seems like a strangely g-loaded topic, unlike race differences where a lot of smart people will insist on the blank slate). Your bias towards «every man is secretly an ephebophile» is probably right on smart people forums.
There is no reasoning in books or legal documents. I read through US court opinions and found that the laws are vitiated by modern norms, in that they were original passed for chastity purposes around 1900, and they tended to have lower age limits. They also only applied to girls, and had no close in age exemption, since most of the point was not allowing the girls to be ravished by teenage boys. They also always had marital exceptions. They no longer satisfy chastity purposes, with close-in-age-exceptions and the general decline of chastity's salience in public morality, so their current aim remains mysterious, despite the ramp up in their age limitations and enforcement. At the same time marriage ages go higher, the target being 18 and no exceptions. So it would seem the point is to have girls be run through by schoolboys before marriage age, while arresting any man barely older who might be in the position to marry her, as the age gaps are comically and unnaturally small. Basically they allow her classmates to exploit her while forbidding her to date a 20 year old of good character. It has been demonstrated scientifically the optimal age gap for fertility is 7 years, with most normal human relationships being between 3 and 10 years of age gap. Yet close in age exceptions are often only 3 or 4 years, distorting most normal monogamous human relationships that should occur.
I tried reading intellectual discourse on the topic and the best I could get are European memoirs. Needless to say there was nothing systematic or impressive here -- Vanessa Springora in «Le consentement» is mad her adult male lover cheated on her when she was 15. So that means we must raise the age of consent? Doesn't follow.
Jiro recently mentioned the American idea of «trauma» which is present in the folk-feminism which persecutes Epstein, but Rind et al eviscerated that idea a quarter of a century ago. When I replied with a four point explication of the faults of «trauma» , Jiro immediately dipped. No debate was had. I conclude it cannot be had.
It's easy. We live in a democracy. High age of consent people have no good reasons, so that leaves aesthetics. Data shows low gender effects for age of consent opinions. Attraction data shows adult men prefer 20-somethings.
Meanwhile you are operating off of potentially fake data, projection, and groupthink/social desirability bias as a vague god of the gaps for when it doesn't exactly add up. To paraphrase how I see your reasoning:
«we live in a democracy, but people secretly disagree with the law, but they don't vote it out because ... groupthink. no further mechanics given, just somehow a minority can mind control a majority. idk. anyway, I get to feel like everyone around me is also significantly attracted to this boyish 12 year old girl and are just lying when they say I have an unusual attraction complex.»
I will be honest with you. Even when I was a schoolboy I liked girl over 16 the most. Even when I was only 16. No lower age gap preferred. Now I am older and I genuinely think 19 or 20 year olds are much more physically attractive than 16 year olds on average. You really cannot argue I am mindcucked because I argue for lowering the age of consent, since it disgusts me how awfully they treat people like you for having historically normal romantic relationships. Just like how I am not actually pragmatically racist but I am attracted to the ideas of HBD. I am a taboo-poker and justice seeker. A lie exposer.
Likewise there are men who definitely like them older than me. They like them «busty» and 26, 27, or 28 years old. I used to assume they were coping but I think it's genuine now. It's a simpler model that predicts more. Humans vary a lot.
Ah, it seems that we've both misunderstood each other. No, I'm not going off of one meme graph going around 4chan; this seems to me to be the compelling result of the research in general, especially accounting for the intensity of people's desire to suppress the information. Nor am I arguing that my personal tastes are average, just closer to average than is generally acknowledged. I don't think people secretly disagree with the law, either; average people clearly feel quite strongly about it. I think social pressure has led the average man to either be or pretend to be attracted to women much older than he otherwise would be across the board, a sort of sexual false consciousness. This sticks out wherever men stop noticing what they're doing; the average man's taste for paradoxical neoteny (the "reverse vampires" of the Sanilac article) is not, I think, so much a naturally-shaped superstimulus as Sanilac imagines as it is the actual taste creeping back in; one especially easy way to pursue the disjoint of features, after all, would simply be to look between the two ages. But that said, yes, I do think I lean younger than most men would if not culturally biased, and I am quite aware of the temptation of the typical mind fallacy here.
I really don't think it works that way but I would love to be proven wrong.
Most in that article was even tasteful enough for me. Almost all of it is trashy and very old looking. And when I say trashy it's because I believe there is negative a correlation between IQ or K-selectedness and ideal age. This or this is what an average 19 year old looks like approximately. If anything there is a trend towards aging up even the girls I like. They want to put on makeup and have BBLs and breast implants until they look like well trodden 27 year old mothers of 3.
But on of the only good things from that article was the classical Venus and that I would say it depicts a 22 year old. The figure skaters are also pretty. They are the most neotenous parts of the article imo.
Way way younger. I think most men want you dead.
Yes, that most men want me dead is rather the elephant in the room through this entire conversation. I don't think they would have in most times and places though. That's culture.
Yes but I'm more annoyed with you ignoring 90% of what ask you than with your neoteny preferences. Are you doing that because you think I'm your enemy? Or do you just have no more defense of your model (not trying to «own» you or anything, just funny I can't even have a discourse with someone who largely agrees with me on this topic, much less a debate with someone that disagrees).
In most populations you were below average neoteny preference, but not far from the average. I think you think we still live in Ancient Rome when men were mainly attracted to 16 year olds. No, we're 500 years into the European Marriage Pattern. It's not mere «ideas» that caused the change.
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