This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I would argue that the attached image is slightly more than mildly pro Palestine stance. Wage the culture war, die by the culture war. He could have gone the whole tour without mentioning Palestine on stage. It is possible. But his narcissism took precedence.
One thing that celebrities should learn is just to keep their fucking mouths shut. Which the celebrities of pre social era managed to do. He is a servant whom I pay to sing to me. I don't care what he thinks about two countries that are just a speck on the map.
For cartels - this is government job. They should break monopolies, monopsonies and vertical integration.
Politically neutral outfit for a rapper.
Yeah, having known about this before hand and not seeing it in the OP felt pretty sus.
More options
Context Copy link
Is this the takeaway? Considering the fact that literally every act including Sheeran's own band has backed Macklemore and pulled out of the tour, I think Sheeran who just kept his mouth shut is the big loser to Macklemore who I think is a net winner here, from gaining favorable publicity and successfully pushing his political position.
More options
Context Copy link
Disclaimer: I do not know any of the guys (presumably they are guys?) involved.
Perhaps you are right and this is all about him making a scene for the attention and press coverage.
But in the age of DJT, it is easy to forget that sometimes, famous (?) people can be motivated by something besides greed and ego. It happens.
Famous people have reach, and sometimes they decide to use that reach to transmit a message unrelated to the thing which they are famous for. It is a whole thing. My understanding is that plenty of musicians protested the Vietnam war, and this was genuinely a sign of being authentic.
Put it another way: would you also express disgust at him professing his beliefs on stage if it was about his religion, or a cause which you supported? "Can you believe the nerve of that guy, going on stage and asking for a minute of silence for the victims of 9/11? I don't give a fuck about Bush vs Osama, he should just shut the fuck up and entertain me."
I am sure the AI musicians of the future will be more to your liking -- the perfectly bland entertainment machines whose silver-grey surfaces can reflect any message equally well once the advertisement contract is signed or the focus group reports are in.
Unfortunately usually they are motivated by stupid.
As you can see in my other post I have explicitly addressed Vietnam. American rockers have the right to bitch about unfair drafting policies of the USG. If he was on 9/11 memorial concert it is ok, if it was 9/11 and he was having a concert also. If it was 23rd of june and he calls for 9/11 minute of silence in Bucharest - yes it is cringe.
My point is that Macklemore's opinion on Israel/Palestine is totally worthless. Like the opinion of Adriana Chechik on OpenAI's solution to Navier Stokes (Adi - if you are reading this, please take no offense, but you are famous for other types of fluid mechanics). He can't add anything to the conversation, he won't change anyone's opinion, so yes - free Palestine is exactly as masturbatory as the people that put posters - Missing for the Hamas hostages in NYC.
He is not that interesting so I could care what is his opinion or belief on anything.
Edit: Not saying that a celebrity has no right/is inappropriate to have or express opinions, but that if you want to help Palestine - create a Food for Palestine tour and donate some of the proceeds to it. Then you can talk as much as you want on stage, because the people going are there for both music and politics. There are also trolls which should be exempt - but proper trolls are rare among a list celebrities.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I think we've seen all we need to see here. Time to wrap up the investigation.
If Macklemore had donned black minstrel paint like he donned this Jew nose, he would have lost a lot more than the Sheeran gig. He would have been drummed out of the industry entirely. Half the country would spit when they heard his name.
The idea that Jews are getting special treatment is just dumb. Sure, compared to normal white people they are higher on the totem pole. But in America they are not the "chosen people". Blacks are.
I'm reminded of Scott's witches analogy. If Jews really controlled the world, you'd be afraid to say anything negative about them. But in the real world, people are constantly saying bad stuff about Jews. Its basically omnipresent in academia and Hollywood. If anything, Macklemore will be more popular after this stunt.
For the record, I am totally fine with Macklemore's jew nose. I'm also fine with minstrel paint. And I also recognize that Jews are responsible for a lot of the social justice stuff in the first place and deserve to be hoisted on their own petard. But also I just, like, don't care. I don't care about Israel. I don't care about Palestine. And I don't care that a talentless rapper lost his job for giving a sermon instead of doing his dancing monkey act. I care about my country and my people, not whatever this is.
More options
Context Copy link
These consequences aren't being delivered because he "waged culture war", celebrities wage culture war all the time. Every single day. The problem is he took a stance against Israel in a Jewish-dominated industry. Robert Kraft taking the credit for "coordinating" the boycott doesn't change what is actually going on here. The consequences are Culture War even more so than the initial statement because they will have a cooling effect on all celebrities everywhere.
Not that I care about Macklemore's opinion on anything, but I do care that these culture-producing industries are themselves waging culture war to enforce a pro-Israel consensus. These artists rely on tours to make money, if they want to make money they can't criticize Israel. That's the message, not that they can't wage Culture War. That's a bigger deal than Macklemore's statement.
Ah, it's not because he waged the culture war. It's because he waged the culture war against an enemy that had resources.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Yeah, that makes him more than pro-Palestine, and his excuse makes it worse ("A fake witches nose, wig, and beard = random costume,"). Although apparently it's from 2014 (long before the tour initially approved him). It's still annoying that zero articles I've read mention it, even the Washington Times.
Yet
If everything is politics, and everything becomes politics, it will creep into their performance. Do you want celebrities to only wear boring outfits and sing boring songs? Even a love song may get in trouble with puritans, who are unpopular today, but that seems to cycle. Rather than every celebrity conforming to mediocrity, I would prefer different brands of offense, even if sometimes it leads to that.
Not all. Punk and rock bands were very political in the "counter-culture" sense, and it made them authentic and energetic. Live Aid can be considered political, but is widely regarded as one of the best concerts of all time, with estimated 40% of the population watching.
There is subtle difference between UK band playing God Save the Queen, Black musicians releasing Straight from Compton, Germans singing winds of change and people that are neither Israeli nor Palestinian shouting free Palestine.
There is nothing in common between Macklemore and Palestinians aside from being the same species.
Second - counter culture wasn't really counter. Most of the people didn't want continuous involvement in Vietnam, very few people wanted communism to survive, only really hardcore racists and people with common sense wanted the apartheid to continue (both tiny minorities). They were pissing off The Man, but were not pissing off fellow normies. The issues that the normies cared about and were willing to show at least some resistance took a lot more time to be won. Right now some issues are toxic. Best to stay away from them.
More options
Context Copy link
Begging the question doesn't really prove anything, "everything is political" is their postulate, not some sort of widely agreed neutral principal.
I think Jews have a word for using consequences of own conduct as a defense. The prototypical example is quite similar, and usually is not accepted.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I want this so much. Celebrities' opinions are worth less than the median person's, their life is so different than that of the average person that any insight they have is alien and irrelevant to me.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link