This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
You say so, but the other narrative is that when people didn't have sex before marriage, they just snagged whoever was available because they were horny.
The silver lining was, practically everyone was available! Archie could go out with Betty one weekend while Reggie was on a date with Veronica, and then date Veronica the next weekend himself, and that was how things were (in the ancient comics, anyway; I gather the recent TV version may have been more "modern"). "Going steady" was a later relationship upgrade and was a big deal. So by the time you were getting off the market you'd probably actually had a decent amount of experience interacting romantically with the opposite sex, figuring out what types of person you were compatible or incompatible with, figuring out what categories of your own behavior were individual personality quirks to the right person versus what types were just universally attractive or repulsive, etc., and you could pursue someone or judge someone's pursuit accordingly.
Trouble is, that system only works if having sex before marriage is "fornicating" and is literally listed as a "mortal sin". If instead the "third date rule" for sex is normal, or even if it's just perceived as normal, dating around carries different weight, right? Increased jealousy and STD risk make "my date's been banging other people" feel much more serious than "my date's been seeing other people" alone could ever be. The obvious defense is to have the "exclusivity talk" ASAP, rather than be left with those worries. But then each time that happens you're with just one person from that point until marriage or breakup, so the same amount of time spent dating limits you to fewer people to date, and a heuristic like the 37% rule translates those limits into greatly reduced selection on who to snag.
It seems to be a collective action problem. Staying a virgin longer sends a signal, and unless you're in the shrinking communities where the signal received is still "they're probably properly devout", the signal is likely to be "she might be frigid" or "he might be a loser".
Teen dating is actually a pretty recent thing- before about the thirties, dating was a serious matter for adults looking towards marriage(which of course didn't mean none of the young women doing it were teenagers). The fifties casual dating culture was a brief moment in time.
More options
Context Copy link
Also a lot of societies you just didn't have a ton of options as a woman unless you got married to a guy. My dad's almost 80 and his 5 sisters were all married by 22 at the latest, due to a combination of the shotgun and life as an unmarried single woman in a poor part of Europe with no particular professional or educational prospects just kinda sucking when you're 1 of 7 siblings in a one-income household.
More options
Context Copy link
It's hard to imagine that teens weren't fucking around regardless. They'd just have to be discreet about it and have deniability.
Once they were going steady, sure, but at that point, many of them just went ahead and got married. Teen marriage rates peaked in the 1950s, which also explains why the teen birth rate was so high. But any girl who slept around before going steady would have gained a reputation for being easy.
More options
Context Copy link
Oh, definitely. How does the old quote about shotgun weddings go? "The first baby can come at any time; after that, it takes nine months." I think sex generally came after the "going steady" phase, so wouldn't greatly change my point, but with something that wasn't openly talked about it's hard to say for sure.
Oops babies aside, there is a whole lot that teens can do together that doesn't result in pregnancy or hymen loss, but most definitely isn't chaste.
And those things genuinely appear to have been relatively rare in historical societies- unmarried men visited prostitutes or, uh, lady palma. Respectable women might not have waited all the way til marriage, this was definitely acknowledged by relevant law codes even into the twentieth century- but these same societies listed 'asking for a blowjob' as grounds for divorce.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I thought the problem is sexual incompatibility: realizing your partner doesn't turn you on or has a different sex drive.
You can figure out that your partner turns you on without taking off any clothing.
As far as different sex drive, that is way overstated. Just have sex when the other person wants it. It's not some weird violation to have sex with someone you love just because it wasn't your idea. And if you're the partner who wants sex more often, put in extra effort to make sure the other person has fun.
A mismatched "sex drive" isn't physical/biological. It's value-based, and you can work out values verbally.
More options
Context Copy link
That too.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I think you should snag someone available. You should settle a little. Otherwise you end up with grass-is-greener, waiting for Prince Charming, until you're 45.
But it wont feel like settling because you don't have anything to compare against. As long as your choice meets the baseline to live a decent life, such as the needed amount of diligence to hold down a job, the necessary amount of playfulness to spend 10 minutes with your own kids, etc, everything above that is gravy.
I knocked out 3 suitors within a month of dating each because they didn't meet the bare minimum to me, and then once there was a guy who did meet the minimum, I went all in. Don't regret it for a minute.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link