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Notes -
Women as a Monolith is Wrong
I am having a lot of trouble defining this argument I want to make, because its a classic motte and bailey situation. In the bailey is some version of "women are like x, and x causes all sorts of terrible things like less attraction from men, less kids, and ruination of society". In the defensible motte there is something like "of course not all women, there are some that remain virtuous, but maybe not enough to matter on a societal level".
The Bailey
Addressing the bailey feels trite, but also necessary.
There is a very real contingent of male youths that do not have enough exposure to feminine circles and social ability to navigate it in a way that allows them to acquire life partners. Men without sisters, female cousins, young female friends, etc. Maybe only their mothers and an aunt or two. They fully do not grok women as people and cannot understand them as anything other than sexual objects or distant uncaring scolds. They live in the bailey of this argument. A sad existence. Others only visit to make a point, but they are truly here in a hellish landscape of misunderstanding.
I've seen a few people extricated from this motte. Specific tale: A 6'3 male virgin that mistrusted all women as gold diggers, despite his painful lack of income. He participated in an obscure sport I play. One female participant in the sport was getting married. Invited 6'3 man, and suggested to one of her promiscuous female friends that maybe he just needs to get laid. The 6'3 man is laid at the wedding, turns out much more chill about women afterwards. Can even start dating, if not successfully, at least without full blown conspiracy theories about women trying to steal his non-existent money.
I personally grew up having a bunch of the hallmarks that make this bailey impossible to sustain. I have a younger sister. She was prom queen, sought after constantly in high school, guys in my grade were dating her. I have a mother that was very open to me about her per-marriage dating life. I had female friends that i managed to not sexualize, mostly because they were dating my male friends, and it felt very wrong to go after them. I had one or two ex girlfriends that turned out to be lesbians/bi. They were sort of off limits after i dated them and acted as a reality check on certain male-female interactions. I had female cousins of a similar age that I knew during puberty.
All of that culminates in a vague understanding of the opposite sex. I would have probably summed it up with these not so groundbreaking insights:
I think of these as not so groundbreaking thoughts. But teenagers do have to learn these things. And I do strongly believe that some teenagers are not learning these things or similar basic lessons. It leads to online personalities that feel pretty alien to most adults. We can't fit them into a normal model of human interaction without assuming them to be incredibly anti-female.
The Motte
This is obviously way harder to address. For a reminder, the motte in this case is something like "not all women are bad, its a small number dragging down the reputation of the virtuous ones, and leading the uncertain ones astray"
Any good motte is a spectrum. At the extreme indefensible end you have "basically all women are uber sluts". At the other extreme you have something like "some women are uber sluts, and it makes it hard on the many precious angel good christian girls to find their proper good christian boys for marriage".
Many ways to go after this, not any of them obviously correct.
I've posted some extremes. You probably will want to quibble with the details. That is expected, its rare to be as extreme as the extremes. But maybe not rare around here.
Again any good motte is a spectrum. If you are somewhere on that spectrum you are in the motte.
I'm not saying that as some kind of "fuck you for being against feminism". Being stuck in the bailey is sad, and I think you have missed out on some formative life experiences. Being in the motte is defensible by definition. But I still want to argue you out of it. Call me a stubborn idiot for that desire.
Sieging the Motte
Any good strategy on a fortified position requires multiple avenues of attack. Or at least completely overwhelming force on one of them.
I will first present possible avenues of overwhelming force.
Women are Humans
For certain avenues of Humanist and Christian thought this should be an overwhelming slam dunk. There is a responsibility on them to figure this thing out. If they need help they should request it. If they are failing they should acknowledge it. If they need more from men they should ask it. If they think what humanity needs involves changing their role in society they should discuss it. Its a sort of virtue ethics writ large.
Men are Broken
One of the big answers to "whats wrong with women in society" is always "well men suck". It is not automatically incorrect, even if something is truly wrong with women.
Men could have evolved for an environment too unlike the one we inhabit today. The stresses of adapting on the cultural and evolutionary level have overwhelmed us. We are seeking the quick bust of a nut, the ephemeral pleasure of a harem over the realistic pleasure and comfort of a loving wife.
Sieging the Motte pt2
Overwhelming force might not be so overwhelming for those steeped in the culture wars. I felt very disingenuous writing that last part. I don't think it is untrue. I do genuinely believe those aspects often overwhelm the brains of most people that get involved in this issue. Its just that for any budding medieval engineers that have heavily considered the aspects of motte defense and offense, they feel juvenile and half baked. Obviously that is where you start on the male and female culture wars. You must remember that there are normies out there that have not advanced as far as the enlightened folks of themotte.
We cultured few can explore the more subtle defenses of the motte. When overwhelming offense does not take the day.
Men and Women are Different
The first thing you might be wondering is "why is this not in the above section?". For most people, obviously men and women are different. There are biological differences based on hormones and genes. But I think what is different is a subtle and key distincter that makes this much less of a forceful offense, and more of a subtle one.
In my mind there is definitely a bunch of science and research that makes it obvious that women are better caretakers from ages -9 months to ~3 years. But there is also evidence that the absence of a father in the following 15 years has a negative impact on the child's earnings and general well-being.
Men and women serve different roles in society. 'hey cjet, why don't you say more obvious crap in your word vomit'. Its sometimes just necessary to state the foundational things. Because sometimes they might not be foundational to everyone.
I do remember having a debate class in high school where one of the proposed topics of "debate" was boys vs girls in sports. There was basically only one girl in the classroom willing to take on the girls side of the debate. Our teacher, a 5'3 self described 'wall flower', had to turn her down. Sometime before or after the story of her single-handedly breaking up a girls fight in the cafeteria by hulk pinning both of the girls to the wall in a stranglehold. Fucking awesome.
Its the algorithms
Its not ladies fault that they have been tricked into wanting so much D. Nor is it men's fault that they can't settle down for a lovely lady. No its the fault of the apps and the algorithms. They simple present too much available D and P. How can human brains overcome such alluring genitalia displayed in front of them and available for their easy consumption via quick hookups?
How about some self control? Crazy idea, but maybe we aren't the first generation to be presented with the concept of hookers. Maybe its called the world's oldest profession for a reason. The time to worry about this is not now, but about 10,000 years ago in ancient Sumer.
I think hookerdom is basically the price of short-term thinking. Choose the hot lady now right in front of you. Or the better match, the less crazy one, the one earning money in her career for the long term option.
If anything we have become too successful at not producing hookers, and not producing men that choose hookers. Or hookers adjacent.
Birth control is too effective
This is what the thought experiment of the last problem inevitably leads into. Ok, we have a hooker/slut culture. The obvious output of such a culture should be a bunch of babies. This doesn't happen because birth control exists. Ergo problem birth control.
We need to remember that birth control is a voluntary choice among at least one of the participants in sexual activity. To get rid of it means we want to substitute intentional choice in offspring for random chance. Which is fine if you are looking for raw numbers, but crappy if you want quality selection and upbringing.
The culture is just like messed up man
Kind of a last ditch psychological warfare against the defenses of the motte. Something is just icky and wrong with the culture. It just feels all wrong. Where is all my sweet strange puss. Why isn't my girl worshiping my hard schlong whenever it happens to get hard. Why aren't enough of my peers acknowledging how awesome and sexy I am.
You are thinking 'hey cjet, don't be an ass', but I'm just typing out thoughts I've had.
I do think there is a basic male urge to have it all. The strange puss, the loving baby maker, the children that look up to you as god, etc. I just also have an economics degree and i realize there are tradeoffs in life. Mostly I am in the "dad" spectrum of tradeoffs right now, with all that entails. Earlier in life I was in the "bachelor" spectrum of tradeoffs and that was fun for a little bit.
There is a philosophical conception of having as many of the nice aspects of tradeoffs as possible all at once. But I'd say that is generally unrealistic for most men. Figure out where you are in life, maybe figure out where you want to be, and adjust life accordingly.
Sieging the motte p3 / Sally forth from the motte
I probably didn't hide it that well. But I do think there are good defenses to the motte in this case of women.
To attack out of the motte, even past the bailey, I think it relies on the uniqueness of women. This goes back to women being human. Women are unique like men. Dumb statement, but also necessary.
Women are among the ultra religious, the ultra slutty, the ultra political, etc. We even shockingly have women that participate in themotte discussions.
I find myself always bothered by themotte discussions on dating. I have an abnormally female contingent of near relatives. One brother one sister. Cousins on my side 8 out of 15 female. Cousins on my wife's side 9 out of 16 female. 3 daughters no sons. 6 nieces, 2 nephews. As closest "grandparents" for my kids, 3 ladies, and one man. Nearest neighbors are a bunch of families with girls and no boys. Some slightly farther neighbors do have boys.
It all comes back to personal experience. I've known many different kinds of women in my life. I'm not a lothario that has dated them all. Simply having a large family has provided a wealth of experience. Any lack of experience there was made up for in the friends I've had over the years.
In general I'd suggest not viewing women as a thing to conquer/trick/subdue. There are intelligent women out there that would make a great partner in your life goals. Especially if those life goals involve family, happiness, well-being.
Adjusting to occupation
Okay the women armies have conquered you, what now? This is an abridged section. I'd like to add more, but its like super late and its been a few too many hours since I started writing.
I think there are significantly different groups of women. Lumping them all into a category is ok if you are going shotgun strategy at a bar. But it us much better if you can learn anything about them beforehand.
I think there are three general axis in modern society for women, and probably for men too. They are also human. But I know more about trying to date women.
Religious/Structured vs anti-religious unstructured
Spiritual/Neurotic vs atheist/rational
Left/Right
Different things will work for you. Different tradeoffs for each. I can think of relationships where one or sometimes two of these are fundamentally at odds but still works. Three off is definitely gonna fail, but probably produce some interesting kids. Speaking of kids, no guarantee they share any of these fundamental axis with you. Good luck raising them, relationship tolerances still apply.
Maybe I was supposed to be positive at some point. Suggest that the war of the sexes will be resolved. or that peace will eventually take over. Nah. That is up to you. There is definitely a trad wife out there for you. I believe that sincerely. You may need to compromise on how trad you want to go (amish anyone?), or how trad she needs to go (maybe she can have a job).
I have helped a few friends find love. I do have a knack for searching and accepting. If you are willing to take help in those directions I am willing to assist. Don't count out your lady friends. Or don't count out your dude bro lovers. I hope for a continuation of humanity via the mingling of genders and the traditional usefulness of penis in vagina cumming.
Feels like an odd thing to end on. But yeah, go humanity.
I'd be up for debating you on the other side of this, not in a "please help me break out of my shell and get laid" kind of way, but more like "finally, a chance to talk about weird sociopolitical theories online".
Feminism found itself arguing a basically equivalent version of your motte-and-bailey fifteen years ago, but about men instead of women. "All men are rapists! Well, maybe not technically ALL men, but enough to matter. Imagine a bowl of M&M's..." These arguments tended to fall flat in the face of actually observing what most men are like, so they found a more compelling equivalent: "rape culture".
In terms of today's discussion, it basically goes like this. When you sleep with a woman, you're also forced to hand her one of those big red imaginary buttons from a thought experiment. If she presses the button any time in the next 10 to 20 years, you die a painful death, and she receives a million dollars and the universal admiration of everyone in her peer group. (For classic MRA types the button was often labelled "divorce", with maybe a spice of "common-law" for good measure. For modern volcels it's usually "accusation". Society offers many flavors of button.)
It's not really the fault of any individual woman that this is the case--certainly not any of the women you'd be handing buttons to. Maybe if you dig hard enough you could find the specific key members of the feminist movement that architected this system, but for all intents and purposes it's just a thing that happens that you have no real control over. You can't even blame them for pressing it, really; I'd certainly be tempted to.
Some people accept that risk, and that's okay. (Like people who enjoy skydiving or African safaris, I wish them all the best with their needlessly dangerous hobby.) Maybe some people have enough clairvoyance to accurately identify women who will never, ever be tempted to press the button; maybe some people have enough money or power to withstand the effects of the button, like those billionaires who hung out on Epstein's island.
But you're not either of those things. ("I'm not?" I've confused myself about what pronouns to use for this thought experiment, sorry.) The expected value of dating is pretty freaking bad, compared to the other options modern society offers for satiating loneliness. The longer you ("I"?) continue with this strategy, the less attractive it looks; the costs of reorienting your life towards dating increase and the probability of success decreases. (Maybe you/I will get wizard powers at 30, or become way more attractive at 40; we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.)
Don't hate the player, hate the game!
Maybe this is where the right and the left end up agreeing, but I do believe ALL men are rapists. I have rape fantasies. Though they’re mostly like being an explorer and having captured tribal girls - Columbus had an account of giving one to his buddy. No rape fantasy of raping within my tribe.
The thing I would disagree with the left is its “rape culture”. No men will just rape in a state of anarchy. It’s actually civilization and tradition and policing power that reigns in men’s sexual thirst. There is an “anti-rape culture”.
Though I’m religious from a cultural viewpoint I like to think like I am playing Civilization and when I choose a religion it comes with certain buffs. The American religious buff in the mid-20th century was a strong middle class by reigning in both male and female sexuality to monogamy.
Your failure to include a comma inverts the meaning of that sentence and makes it inconsistent with the rest of the paragraph.
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