This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Can we just deport him? And no I am not talking about a Somalian, but Alexander Ovechkin. He just appeared in a Russian political ad. When asked why he did that he replied, “I’m Russian, I support my country”. But here’s the thing the west and to a lesser extent the US is at war with Russia. Undeclared and without ground troops, but we are contributing financing, seized Russian assets, and have and probably still provide intelligence to the Ukrainian side. I think supporting a foreign government at war with America is perfectly fine grounds to deport someone.
The counter argument and I think a reasonable opinion for letting him stay is that cultural exchange makes peace easier. So there are solid grounds for letting him stay. I probably take the opinion that letting him play hockey in the US is better for US foreign policy than deportation.
From a cultural war perspective I would love Trump to deport him and make the lefties who “support Ukraine” make arguments for why Ovechkin in ICE shackles is a bad thing. Meh “free speech”. I did the AI thing and it sounds like he doesn’t have US citizenship but if he did he would make a perfect test case for denaturalization. Declaring yourself to have loyalties to a foreign government at war with the US seems absolutely perfect for denaturalization.
Also, nice culture war on Trump is a Russian agent by deporting a Russian. And it fits with the meme “we need them for the sports ball team”.
He’s just a perfect test case for deportation since his politics are against the US left instead of their Hamas adjacent friends who a broad swath of the left supports.
Geopolitically, America gains a lot from the brain drain that draws talented people here from all over the rest of the world. This brain drain both makes America stronger geopolitically and makes other places weaker.
Deporting people who vocally sympathize with their birth countries while still contributing to the US economy could hurt the power of that brain drain.
In Ovechkin's case it probably doesn't matter. He's not really innovating anything that would be economically transformative. But if one started deporting people who sympathize with "back home" left and right, it would start to matter.
Now, does the average American benefit from the brain drain? Maybe not -- one could argue that the average American is hurt by it at least as much as helped. However, the average American also doesn't benefit from the US-Russia conflict, so for the average American, there is also no actual good reason to deport Ovechkin. It's kind of a wash.
Truth be told, if America got rid of everyone who has ever wished for a foreign power to defeat the US government's foreign policy, we might be looking at a deportation campaign that rivals Trump's wildest border promises. The number of Democrats who consciously or unconsciously hope for US military defeat every time a Republican is running a war and the number of Republicans who consciously or unconsciously hope for a US military defeat every time a Democrat is running a war is colossal. More Democrats than Republicans, I'm sure, since Republicans tend to identify with the military much more frequently.
America is so strong that the vast majority of its wars don't really matter that much. We have the freedom to care more about a war's impact on domestic politics than about whether the war is actually won or lost.
And one of the key tenets of American mass political thought is that when the Other Side is sitting in Washington, our foreign policy is being run by shadowy elites who hate the American people and are just trying to steal our money. But when Our Side is sitting in Washington, our foreign policy is being run by noble crusaders who are trying to spread freedom and democracy.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link