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Notes -
Time for some good old fashioned gender politics seethe:
https://old.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/11of65g/i_21m_asked_my_friend_21f_to_be_fwb_and_now_she/?sort=confidence
A clearly very socially awkward nerdy literal virgin (despite being 21 years old) guy thinks a cute girl in his study group is flirting with him. He takes her aside privately after a study session and asks her… does she want to be his FWB (friends with benefits)? He reasons that he wants to have fun like many young men and isn’t looking for a relationship right now.
The girl is shocked and taken aback. She turns him down flat and appears uncomfortable. He feels uncomfortable too and apologizes to her and leaves.
Over the next few weeks, she doesn’t say anything to him at study sessions. He tries to make contact again, not to proposition her, but just to resume their friendly acquaintanceship. She tells him directly that she doesn’t want to speak to him. He is hurt but understands and leaves her be. Soon enough, he learns that she has told her friends and extended social circle what happened, and he is widely reviled as a creep. He feels hurt and violated. He laments that he has lost a friend, and now feels like he’s being lambasted for an innocent error, and he wishes the whole thing would just end and go away.
My take on OP is sympathetic. He comes off as extremely awkward and clearly isn’t well versed in the endless myriad of opaque and seemingly contradictory rules of modern dating. He wanted an FWB, and he didn’t understand that the socially acceptable way to get one is to ask a girl out on a date (usually through Tinder), then hook up with her, then either stay as vague as possible for as long as possible about your intentions while continuing to periodically fuck, or to sort of half way shrug after a fuck session and say, “yeah, I’m just really not looking for anything serious right now.” OP genuinely thought he was being upfront and honest with another person, and assumed that he was proposing something mutually beneficial.
Yes, it’s not a good idea to outright proposition a girl to be an FWB in a library. It’s awkward and weird and I can see how it made her feel uncomfortable. But all signs point to OP making an innocent error. He didn’t know any better. When he became aware of his mistake, he immediately apologized, gave the offended party space, and only later attempted to reestablish contact in a friendly, non-threatening manner. He made an innocent mistake and responded in the best possible way.
And Reddit’s response to OP is… calling him a massive piece of shit in every conceivable way.
What I find interesting about the overwhelming criticisms of OP is that they split in two completely opposite directions, but seemingly from the same critics.
On the one hand, OP is relentlessly slut shamed. He is accused of treating this woman like a “flesh light,” of feeling “entitled” to sex, of creepily trying to fuck an acquaintance, of pursuing sex with a girl instead of trying to date thine lady like a proper Victorian gentleman.
On the other hand, OP is relentlessly virgin shamed. He’s an incel, a fool, a creepy moron. He’s daring to try to have casual sex when he hasn’t even lost his virginity because he is SUCH A MASSIVE FUCKING LOSER. OP doesn’t understand that casual sex is only for chads who have fucked a bunch of girls, FWBs are an unlockable perk, not a privilege of the sexually unworthy.
Fortunately, there is a minority of Reddit commenters backing OP up, but it is a small minority. Meanwhile, many more posters are saying that OP is well on the way to becoming an incel or Andrew Tate fan, and unfortunately, they’re right, just not in the way they think they are.
I don’t have a larger point for this post, only that it’s incredibly frustrating that a significant portion of mainstream culture has erected these standards for the dating marketplace where one false step not only does, but should result in social and moral annihilation.
The participants in the Reddit BoRU and RA threads are unwittingly putting on an illustration of our threads that discuss male vs. (lack of) female approaching, the Women are Wonderful Effect, the societal eagerness to vilify men.
The elephant in the room there, an elephant that Reddit women will generally avoid (or whose existence they will deny, as the elephant makes them feel less like strong independent #GirlBosses), is that women are extremely passive when it comes to approaching and will not take initiative to… initiate. Men have the burden of performance. It’s up to men to read women's minds as to know when/how to approach or risk making women “uncomfortable,” since nothing is worse than the sin of being a man and making a woman feel “uncomfortable.”
Not that the slightest of fucks is given to a man’s comfort—like hypothetically, gossiping to turn his classmates against him, confronting him about asking a girl to hook up (when it’s none of your business), or texting him from an unfamiliar number to insult him.
How dare Study Session Guy look for a friend with benefits when he’s a stupid low-status virgin? Ugh, the male entitlement. Who does he think he is? Doesn't he know he's a low-level character who lacks the EXP to unlock that part of the map yet, much less pursue that quest? He should be grateful for her friendship, know his place and patiently stay in the friendzone, slowly orbit and monkey dance and maybe one day the friendship evolves into a relationship if he’s lucky she so deigns.
It’s also amusing how young women sometimes act like spoiled children—especially when it comes to courtship and dating—and we pretend it doesn’t happen, provide an “oh dear, dear, gorgeous” like the Ramsay meme, or actively condone and encourage them. Study Session Girl could had just said “no thanks” and discontinued the friendship. She could had even said “no thanks” and continued the friendship. Either way, a level-headed response that might befit an adult. Yet, she had to poison the well, start a gossip mill, sink his reputation, and essentially create a hostile
workstudy session environment for affronting the Lady's honor, for having the audacity as to be insufficiently attractive while thinking she might be That Kind of Girl (which she likely is, just not for him). The crowd had to be set upon him, in name of her honor. Slay, queen! He had it coming.Obviously, this is not to say directly asking a girl to be your friend with benefits is wise, tactically. Quite the opposite, as it takes away her plausible deniability and ability to dodge accountability, her ability to tell herself and others “we were just talking and hanging out; somehow one thing led to another and omg it just like happened!” If a younger brother, male cousin, nephew, etc. recounted me a story like Study Session Guy's, I'd shake my head and be like "Did we not teach you anything? Let's review the ways that could had gone better..."
@Quantumfreakonomics remarked earlier this week that he would in the past think:
I wouldn’t say dirty, lying, backstabbing tricks are necessary for success; I certainly wouldn't like deploying dirty, lying, backstabbing tricks (Russell Conjugation, perhaps: “Others might deploy dirty, lying, backstabbing tricks, but I deploy subtle, creative, smooth maneuvers”). However, I would say a large degree of social engineering and maintaining kayfabe is certainly needed for consistent success. Asking a girl if she wants to be your friend with benefits breaks kayfabe.
"Yes means yes” comes to mind and how it can be construed as an intentional or unintentional civilisational-level shit-test. The nice feminist guys who take it slow and overcommunicate every step of the way will fumble their chances away and remain pussless, whereas the toxic inconsiderate chauvinists who go full steam ahead all gas no brakes will see many more touchdowns. It separates the socially savvy from the non-socially savvy (and in the case of “yes means yes,” helpfully gives women another way to retrospectively claim non-consensuality if they so feel like it).
Decades of gender egalitarianism and mainstream feminist propaganda certainly don’t prepare young men for navigating sex and dating. Men and women are the same, except for when women are more Wonderful but sometimes more vulnerable—and when men are shittier and more toxic.
If you believe their pretty lies about women, the same cultural forces will only blame you for believing their lies. Study Session Guy paid the price for believing that male and female sexuality are similar, that men and women have a similar disposition toward honesty. As @erwgv3g34 commented on the Motte subreddit back in the day:
>Television: *lies to you about women all your life*
>School: *lies to you about women all your life*
>Women: *lie to you about women all your life*
>You: *believes lies about women*
>Society: "Haha, you actually believed the lies we told you about women? FUCKIN' AUTIST".
This is why I hate normies.
If you aggregate up Reddit women’s reactions to threads like these (about men bungling initiation attempts)—and their dating advice (more like “advice”) in general on approaching—it shakes out to something like this:
Don’t cold approach women. What kind of creep pesters women he doesn’t know? Women don’t date strangers.
Don’t ask out women from class or work. What kind of creep exploits school or work to pester women who are a captive audience?
Don’t ask out women from your social circle. What kind of creep takes advantage of his friendships or social circle to pester women?
Don’t ask out women that you meet through hobbies like dancing or sports. What kind of creep takes advantage of hobbies to pester women? Women are there for their interest in the hobby, not to meet men.
Oh and don’t message girls on online dating or social media. There’s already too many creepy losers in online dating
(like you)and what kind of creep pesters women on their social media accounts? Ugh, just because her profile is inundated with bikini pics and lingerie shots doesn’t mean she’s looking for sexual attention.Of which, Study Session Guy violated the second (while being insufficiently attractive and sufficiently unattractive, of course). However, a man who dutifully and obediently follows these commandments will find himself with no options to improve his dating prospects. Reminds me of that hilarious Motte thread: “Just tell me where you think white people are supposed to live” started by @knob. A confused, frustrated, or indifferent man reading Reddit women’s advice might ask: “Just tell me where you think men are supposed to meet women.”
Nowhere. In the eyes of women, if you’re the type of man who deliberates about where and how to ask out women, you’re unworthy. Women generally view men who approach courtship strategically or opportunistically as inherently creepy or suspicious. They want naturals—not some imposter who, by some combination of the numbers game and clever strategery, managed to punch above his weight. After all, for women, courtship and romance are just magical things that happen to them serendipitously like Acts of God, so what’s wrong with these men who need to bombard women with messages, plot to join hobbies to meet women, or bother innocent study session classmates? So gross and unromantic.
An obvious solution for men, naturally, is to ignore women’s dating advice for men, ignore sanctimonious vilification of men who approach courtship the “wrong way,” strive toward being attractive and not unattractive, and keep a cost/benefit analysis in mind to see what trade-offs of risk and reward might work for you. My approach in recent years is to aggressively DM on social media/online dating (preselection and female mate-choice copying for the win) when I foresee having lots of free time in the near future, but be very conservative in approaching through social circle or the workplace (lest an errant attempt gets my social credit points knocked out Sonic’s-rings-style like what happened to Señor Study Session).
I created an account, after years of lurking, just now to respond to this thread As A Woman. And not only that, As A Liberal, Cisgendered Woman. I supposed I have strong feelings about reading all these sentiments about folks of my sex and gender and couldn’t help myself from chiming in, as I think most of the advice and ideas in this thread are useless for the lurking men reading here who actually want to date a woman.
I have seen tons of absolute and negative statements about my personality (since I am a woman and am therefore lumped in) with little evidence, and am wondering; do you, and folks in this thread who agree with you, actually want to date a woman? Because it doesn’t seem like you fundamentally respect them. It seems to me the general sentiment is that all women are emotionally immature children (without objective evidence to prove it). My subjective observation would be that that attitude - women are liars, women are picky, etc. - about women leaks out into interactions with them, and, understandably, they, or I supposed “we”, do not want to get romantically or sexually involved with someone who thinks so poorly of “us”. Well, I suppose some of “us” do, but that’s a kink lol. I would recommend that loveless men consider one solution to their lack of success in the dating market is to re-examine their overall attitude about women and see if that isn’t playing a part as to why women are not responding the way you want them to.
Congrats on breaking the lurking barrier.
Anyways, your theory sounds good doesn't work.
Evidence? Anecdotes. Some very successful with women guys I know have let's just say some unenlightened views about women behind closed doors among all-male company. And believe me you will have to work a whole lot to squeeze out the things I say about women in the motte in real life.
So yes, this reasoning does make sense, and I am sure actually does effect some men's chances on the margins, but I would say in large you have cause and effect mixed up. Guys become bitter about women proceeding a lack of success (and sometimes too much of it)(not the other way around), this sometimes manifests into a negative feedback loop, sometimes doesn't.
Here's something I want the 4 female readers to understand. Because they keep on making the same mistake over and over again. You realize how men are generally funnier than women right? (Perhaps because they need to be funny to get laid so they develop a sense of humor?). Men also need to get good at lying to women to get laid as well. Don't believe everything the men in your social circles tell you in polite company.
Men around you could hold views like the ones you read here and just hide their power levels. Hell, I used to draw butterflies and frame them in pretty picture frames and gift them to my ex because she liked butterflies. (Even though it was the gayest shit in the world) Very sweet of me I know.
Don't extrapolate or interpolate from mask-off conversations in anonymous online forums. You certainly know how some in the motte feel about Jews and Blacks. Some discussions are theoretical..
Also, why didn't you oppose any of his claims? Such as {you say X but that's clearly false evidenced by Y}, and instead went straight for the ad-hom?
It's just a very tired form of arguing, imagine every left-wing argument was met with, "maybe you just suck at making money".
Yes, I know that and I don't find it convincing argumentation in that context either. Because the whole point of arguing is to.. convince the other side. Shitting on them kind of gets in the way of that.
You can make an entire corpus of systems level arguments against leftism spanning system dynamics, control theory, game theory, and economics without having spoken on the character attributes of the leftists even once. But I will sneak in a few comments about how their humanities and social science major asses are incapable of not only understanding the formalized versions of fields but abstracted out models either.
Is there truth to it in both cases? Yes. Even though in the gender war front I would say the lines between cause and effect are blurrier.
They might but their mechanisms for dealing with it are terrible. It always just boils down to attractiveness. Which is rational if you assume everyone's a liar and cheater so might as well go for the good looking ones.
Do I think a better mechanism exists? Yes.. just use all that "emotional intelligence" to figure it out.
The blackpill is that it doesn't actually matter if you are a liar, cheater, or immoral (make the inference using the aforementioned proxy variable). I have enough reason to believe as much. Which is again not really a bad thing. Nature is hardly deontological.
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I have little desire to speak outside of this thread sadly, as most people here believe I am fundamentally lesser than them and so cannot converse with me in good faith. And as to your attitudes about women, as I said below, it is impossible to believe someone is lesser than you, have general animosity about their biology, choices and personality, and have a conversation with them in good faith, much less treat them well in an private, intimate setting. I am sure most the men you know who secretly think their wives are silly and immature are not very happy behind closed doors. No sane, healthy person wants to be in a relationship and therefore spend time and money with someone they consider beneath them.
Unfortunately, anecdotes are neither facts nor sufficient evidence to say absolute statements such as "Women do not know what they want.", which is unfortunate to see in a space that espouses value in objectivity and facts.
Edit: do you have any evidence that men are funnier than women?
Edit...Edit?: Opposing his claims assumes he respects me enough to listen to my argument in good faith. He already believes I am "extremely passive when it comes to approaching and will not take initiative to… initiate". He doesn't care much for my thought process and would likely be glad to have me continue to abstain. However, I think if you want to continue to talk to me you'll have to respond with a reply instead of an edit.
This isn't true at all! You can take seriously the arguments of someone who's dumber, or morally lesser, than you. Ancient kings sometimes heeded the advice of philosophers or commoners, despite believing in something like a great chain of being. Not that it matters, most mottizens are liberals or christians or some sort and hold something like 'everyone is equal morally/eyes of god' and also 'honest and clear discourse is important'
It's not an absolute statement though, it describes a tendency. If I say "man, islam sure is sexist" on a visit to the middle east, and you point out the large number of liberal muslims in the US who aren't sexist ... this misses the point? But a lot of women make statements that are transparently incompatible with their 'revealed preferences', especially about sex and dating. Obviously more generally both men and women do it, but there are specific patterns to the way women do it - like, describing the behaviors they like in men, or claiming that PUA stuff universally doesn't work (it does! example, second paragraph), which zinker is referring to.
Like, what's even happening here? What do the words "sane" and "healthy" even mean? If I believe the following: women should be subservient to men, God's law is that a husband and wife should love each other, and then enjoy spending time with my wife in the usual way you do, and "explicitly justify this" via the second premise ... I want to be in a relationship and spend time and money, and yet I consider my wife in some sense "beneath me". A sexist might spend plenty of money on their wife as part of a social game to show wealth! That statement's just not true.
Yet we all reply, reply, reply, because this place explicitly exists to have autistic long discussions about politics with people we disagree with!
I disagree. You cannot take seriously someone who you think is dumber than you, because if their argument is sound, it is not because you think their reasoning is sound or their character, but that they got lucky enough to say a smart thing.
But women are not a monolithic religion like Islam. They have their own individual preferences that vary between eachother. For example, I think PUA stuff does universally not work, and...where am I supposed to go with "describing behaviors they like in men"? How are you able to tell I am lying about what kind of man I like by the basis I am a woman? Do you have objective evidence to show women are typically lying about something as fundamentally as what they like?
"Sane" and "healthy", in my opinion, fall under "not being with someone who thinks you should be subservient to them or they should be subservient to you". A sexist is not a sane, healthy person. Does your wife know that you think, explicitly, she should be subservient to you?
That's not what the phrase 'reasoning is sound' means? If their argument is sound, their 'reasoning is sound'. Very dumb people often understand things correctly, e.g. they go about day-to-day life normally, and that requires thousands of bits of 'sound reasoning' - what made that sound, did i buy food yesterday, etc. "Get lucky" and "take seriously" are entirely compatible! If someone with 100iq, purely randomly, discovered the true theory of quantum gravity, the 150iq physicists would love to take his argument seriously. And I've learned a lot from some objectively stupid people who still, by coincidence or life experience, had interesting information.
More specifically, I've had teachers in subjects who were, clearly, much dumber than me, but they had lots of domain knowledge that I didn't have, which it was useful for me to learn, so I learned it! It's difficult to say I wasn't taking said teacher seriously as I learned all that stuff from them, in the exact same way I would from a smarter teacher. Yet that's what your argument would suggest.
But nothing is monolithic - the reason for the islam example was precisely because there are a lot of liberal muslims who don't share most of the ideas of conservative muslims. And, similarly, that phrase, as it describes women, is referring to a strong tendency among most women, not all women.
Then what explains the many women who say it works on them? An example of which I linked, but there are many more. In general, if one observes peoples' stated desires, they are so clearly influenced by social norms, mimesis, and all sorts of complicated contingencies that they are clearly very often wrong. Not as explicit lies, but more as combinations of alienation, general confusion, not wanting to seem weird, copying the desires of others, confusing signs for signified, etc. So I can just do this - from your perspective, both modern conservative women and generally past 'reactionary' women were wrong about their desires, right? So it's clearly possible.
So have 98% of all male humans who have ever lived not been "sane"? Because 'women have lower status than men and are in some what subservient" is the norm, obviously in many different forms, historically.
Yet sexists can lead ... perfectly normal lives? Again, by this claim, 99% of all male humans who have ever lived are not sane or healthy. Yet they lived very similar lives to male humans today, and we can read their cultural artifacts, books, diaries, and they clearly are, by every conventional meaning of the word, sane and healthy.
I haven't ever claimed, anywhere, that women should be subservient to men, or husbands should be to their wives. You've conflated my arguments with the general sphere of 'right-wing arguments' you're seeing here.
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I think you are making two mistakes here. The first is to assume that positions that deviate from the bog-standard feminist discourse must be evidence of misogyny. I don't think that is necessarily the case. The posters here certainly don't hate you personally - they don't know you.
Second: I think you are typically-minding men. It is extremely important for most straight women to be with someone they "respect" and can look up to. It would be revolting to be partnered to someone they consider beneath them. The same is not true for men. "Respect", in the sense women use the word, i.e. a stand-up guy that can take care of himself, is assertive and ambitious, that people listen to etc., does not place very high on the list of criteria men have for suitable partners. They do need to respect their partners in terms of earnesty, fidelity, sincerity (and for some: chastity) but it is fundamentally a different dynamic.
I don't see how calling all women lying, indecisive, immature, unfunny children isn't misogyny, and more than calling all men sexually frustrated chimps isn't misandrist. The posters here may not hate me, yes, but as I said earlier, I believe when engaging with people who find you biologically inferior to them, the most charitable interpretation of your arguments will be with pity or amusement. If my argument is sound, it is not because my reasoning or logics are sound, but because putting a monkey in a room with a typewriter for an infinite amount of time will cause him to inevitable smash out the works of Shakespeare or, a broken clock is right twice a day, because I am a woman, and things like rationally arguing doesn't come naturally according to posters here, so I either learned it from a man or I have too much testosterone in my system. Not hate, yes, but certainly not a positive sentiment.
Do you have evidence that all men don't want to be with someone they respect earnestly? Because I disagree; I think all people want to be with someone that makes them happy, and being with someone you think will be unfaithful for no reason than their biology sound a bit paranoid and miserable to me.
You continue to misunderstand me and I think it might be because you are conflating the replies of many different people in this thread here. Like women, us non-feminist men and women are not a monolith.
I am also not sure where you are getting that most people here think that women are incapable of reasoning. I would not be surprised if you found that kind of talk around here somewhere - people argue a lot of shit on the motte - but it certainly isn't a very widespread sentiment. We have quite a few very respected female posters here.
What I do think is that our society gives upper middle-class women a free pass for some extremely shitty behaviour that hence becomes normalised. Frankly, we are raising a lot of women to become raging narcissists with all the idiotic #grrrlllllpwrrrrr propaganda that is being blasted on all channels. Consequently, women will be displaying more of these undesirable traits in our Western societies. I also believe there are more male than female assholes in Iran, if that makes you happier.
I also believe that by and large, men and women are different, on average and with large overlaps, and that this difference doesn't stop at the neck. For example, there tends to be a lot more difference between stated and revealed preferences among women, at least when it comes to romantic and sexual preferences.
I am well aware that this makes me a miSogYniSt according to contemporary feminism. It doesn't mean I don't believe in equal opportunities for all. I certainly don't believe in the equalisation of outcomes for unequal effort, though.
You are again substituting what you think respect is and should mean for what I think respect is and should mean - which I believe to be different for men and women. Also, your requests for evidence are an isolated demand for rigour. I could go and look for studies on how much men and women value assertiveness and ambition in their partners, for example. But that takes time and I am not sure it would convince you one bit. You'd have to show me the effort is worth it - I don't see you providing any data backing up your experiences either.
Never said that. Read carefully.
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No one will know (or care if) you are a woman if you don't start every comment with "As a woman". But you do you.
I don't know what to say besides the fact that despite it intuitively not being possible, it happens. Especially on the motte. That's kind of the whole selling point of the place, that you can discuss civilly with people you strongly disagree with. Is it not evident to you that multiple 400+ word responses carefully understanding your arguments and then voicing agreement or disagreement at a level much higher than the rest of the internet? Did anyone tell you to "gtfo bitch"? Because that is just about how most of the internet including females you disagree with would have responded. If engaging with you sincerely and respectfully despite "hating your guts" isn't the purest definition of respect, then I don't what is.
Just bring strict arguments, I am sure you know what is good and bad after years of lurking. Leave your identity and emotions and ego at the door and you will be fine. This is "high decoupler" land and all you need are arguments.
Seriously just take my advice, and don't take the words you see here personally. Leave the fact you are a woman and just dive straight into the actual facts. I have used the internet long enough to know that making a discussion about you sanctimoniously will always end badly no matter how much the audience loves you.
Yes, the gender ratio of comedians not only in standup but all forms. And the fact that I make women laugh about 50x more than they make me laugh. Men also make me laugh a lot more than women. This is so obvious to me that I don't feel the need for evidence.
First result from google. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336735385_Sex_differences_in_humor_production_ability_A_meta-analysis
Atleast try before immediately assuming the worst? Once again that's the whole point of the motte.
Which is a fact. Women do approach men a lot less than men approach women.
I don't know what it has to do with YOU in particular. He is speaking in generalities.
I'm here all day.
Is it not evident to me that multiple 400+ word responses carefully misunderstanding my arguments and then voicing mostly disagreement is a sign of respect and more evident that it is the expected form of discourse here if you don't want to get a ban. Talking politely to me while thinking I am not deserving of higher education, management positions and a place in the workforce because my body makes me emotional and immature is hardly what I consider to be the makeup of a person who respects me and my choices. You say, "Leave the fact you are a woman and just dive straight into the actual facts.", but did the many men here who included the fact they are men and have used mostly anecdotal evidence and subjective, absolute statements doing the same? I would say no. I would say not even you, whose only evidence I see for why men are funny is your opinion of standup comedians and your opinion on the women around you.
I decline to try, because, as I said, it is impossible to have a conversation in good faith with someone you believe is biologically inferior to you. His most charitable interpretation of me would be amusement, or benign pity, because even if my argument was sound, it would not be because my character was sound but because a monkey hitting keys on a typewriter for an infinite amount of time with almost surely type any given text, including the complete works of Shakespeare, or, a broken clock is right twice a day.
The benefit of the rules here is that I can have a conversation with people who disrespect me, not that I can have a respectful one. I am quite sure if it was not for the strict efforts of the moderation team, most men here would indeed tell me "gtfo". Instead, they say, as seen above, "you might not be the best source of actionable and effective advice here.", which I find more conductive for a conversation, yes, but not at all indicative of respect for me.
Huh? Every reply could just be "I don't think you are engaging in good faith." if so. Yet people are trying to argue your points in detail. That said arguments misinterpret your points is ... just how complicated politics discussions often work.
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I guess that depends on what you consider a "respectful" conversation.
We have a lot of people here with diametrically opposed viewpoints and identities, and by "diametrically opposed" I mean there are posters who literally believe certain other posters should be dead and/or stripped of their rights. This is not hyperbole (though fortunately, it's also a small slice of the general commentariat).
But generally speaking, this place isn't for "winning" an argument with another poster (though it's an easy trap to fall into). You may be talking to someone who doesn't actually believe you are sapient (we have those too) but that person isn't the only one reading your words.
Obviously, you aren't obliged to talk to anyone you don't want to talk to. But consider that you are not trying to persuade the hopeless, seething misogynist, even if that's the person you're arguing with.
I absolutely agree with your final sentence. Anecdotally, I never said a single word in /r/TheRedPill, and yet through sheer lurking, I found myself so thoroughly redpilled I was asking men on that forum what I should do as a woman to make men happy since I was so naturally prone to pissing them off. Those ghostly eyes watching us are always watching, after all. I like to think here we share counterarguments. If they are good or bad ones depends on those everwatchful lurkers.
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I'm more or less confident most of the users who responded to you would have responded the same regardless of the threat of the ban hammer or not. I've been seeing those names for years.
You might think you merely being a woman is enough to send everyone here into a rage or something but you do realize there are like 5 other women also in the thread?
So what?
I think the majority of the human population doesn't "deserve" higher education. I am not "disrespecting" anyone, I am proposing a way to optimize a system.
Much in the same way the system of dating would be optimized towards a male advantage if women majority non-economically productive majors were not subsidized. You wouldn't even have to think about the women at all, a libertarian can reach that exact same conclusion, and the outcome would be the same.
I also think they (most people) make bad choices. It would be disrespectful to lie about that!
I don't know why you are autistically latching onto this one point. Yes, I think men are in general funnier than women, sue me? Once again, what's the big deal if I hold that opinion?
I gave you literally all the evidence in the world for it, and it is all the evidence because there are more pressing matters to study than which gender cracks better jokes.
You can try or not, that's your call.
But I would say taking up the challenge is quite literally what the motte is for.
No one is entitled to respect. Firstly because you are a new account and no one knows you as a person. Secondly, "respect" is not a necessary precondition to have a conversation in a pseudonymous forum.
This aligns with men's experiences, once again, whats the big deal?
Do you not think that other women think that women as a group are in general better than putting on makeup or some extremely obvious majority-female activity? Are women "disrespecting" men by believing that or just believing in the truth?
You are making the whole thing about yourself and taking an issue with people disagreeing and saying that your general group might not be good at things. Those are not arguments, those are complaints.
If you want to defend the honour of your gender, do it, but you are making it all about yourself and making "omg people are mean to girls here can you believe it" statements. There's no way to engage with solipcism meaningfully.
I do think there are other women that think that all women are better at makeup, parenting, nursing, etc, due to biological preferences and yes, I think it is disrespectful to men to imply that they are incapable of certain things because of their bodies. I think all men and women are capable of exactly the same things emotionally and spiritually, sans physical capabilities due to hormonal differences which can be remedied with science.
I am making it all about myself because I am a woman, and every generalized comment about women is therefore directed at me. When you say men are funnier than women, you are also saying you are funnier than me, for no other reason than because of your body. The "big deal" of you holding that opinion is that I find it's a rather illogical and mean one, and tells me you have rather poor judgement, and also if I were to meet you in real life, I should avoid trying to be funny with you and people who agree with you because you will be hostile to all of my jokes in the company of other men. You have yet to provide me any evidence men are funnier than women other than your belief. If I think men and women can be equally funny because humor is not a physical trait, does that make it trounce yours because I believe it more than you? I'd say no.
I don't know exactly how to engage with absolute statements, which are neither statistically or personally relevant. People here make big claims about women - and therefore me - with little evidence other than personal anecdotes. Your characterization of people just saying "my" group "might" not be good at things is rather charitable for statements that literally call me indecisive, immature, emotional and illogical.
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