This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
In some non-US news German Catholic has decided to vote against official Catholic doctrine, by supporting the blessing of same-gender relationships. Unlike ML
Kwho advocated a stricter reading of the Bible, present schismatics seem to argue in favour of a "livingconstitutionBible".If they hope to bring back believers by adopting left-alligned attitudes, they are probably mistaken. This is because if one looks towards the US, a country with sufficient religous pluralism to make comparisons between various sects of Christianity, one can observe that future only holds failure for such a plan.
More progressive Christian groups, apparently called "mainline" in American discourse, are declining significantly faster then conservative ("evangelical") ones.
I assume that such statistics are known to Catholic leadership, be it in Vatican or Bonn, so it stands to reason it probably isn't maximization of mass attendance that is the motivation. Sincere belief in correctness of their cause is.
If Vaticans persecution of rightist deviations, and German acceptance of leftist ones, hastens the decline of belief in G-d, it would be in-line the usual stance of the Church that Truth (as it interprets it: gay couples deserve to be blessed, bishops need permission to Mass in Latin) is important than popularity.
Better there be A Couple, but Committed, than Common, but Cafeteria.
From the traditionalist Catholic perspective, this problem should be easily solved. Pope Francis will issue an Ex Cathedra document defining the Church's traditional teaching on same-sex relationships, and the offending bishops will be told to repent of their heresy under penalty of excommunication.
If this happens, it would be appropriate to update, if only slightly, towards the Catholic church being the true church of Jesus Christ protected from error by the Holy Spirit. I expect that Francis will instead issue some vague noncommittal statement, possibly not even through official channels, urging caution when speaking on doctrine of faith and morals or whatever.
That would be my own opinion and what I'd do if I were pope, but I think the German hierarchy would rather schism and set up something along the lines of the Dutch Old Catholics. They'd have the support of the state as a church, the liberals would love them, and they'd have as good a claim as the Lutherans to be in the line of apostolic succession*. Breaking away means they could go the whole hog on female ordination, LGBT clergy and all the rest of the "Why doesn't the Church modernise like the rest of the Christian denominations?" agenda that has been hanging around since Vatican II.
So if you want to have any hope of not tearing the church apart, and it is the job of the pope to be a pastor and keep the flock together after all, you can't wave the stick around too harshly, else the German bishops are (some of them) just straining at the leash for an excuse to break away and set up a German National Catholic Church of their own.
*This does not mean that I agree that Lutherans etc. retain apostolic succession, but if they did schism, we'd have another Lefebvrite mess on our hands since this bunch are bishops and could validly, if illicitly, ordain male clergy. See the likes of Michael Cox - not a Lefebvrite - who has a tangled claim to being validly if irregularly ordained, and has gone on to perform stunts like "ordaining" Sinéad O'Connor (in the five minutes she decided she wanted to be a priest). Better to try to keep them inside the tent pissing out, as the saying goes.
At this point what to the German bishops represent? 4 million active church goers? (10% of 80mm - protestant half)
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link