This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Legitimacy & Israel
What is it that makes a state legitimate? It's amazing to me how many people simply take any existing state as legitimate, without asking whether it ought to be seen as legitimate or not. States commit horrific acts of violence and coercion daily, so this is an important question. How can we know whether such a state is actually justified in committing such blatantly awful acts?
There are, I think, at first appearance two popular theories of this: might makes right, and democratic moralism. The former theory is amoral, and the latter is moralistic. In practice, however, I think these are in fact merely two faces of the same coin.
On the one hand, the might-makes-right people say that the state is self-justifying. It exists, it has might, therefore obey it, end of discussion. This is unsatisfying in that it essentially dodges the topic of discussion. As such it is not really a valid answer to the question of legitimacy; rather it implicitly denies that there is any question to be had at all. Might makes right might be a good starting point for a science of state, which investigates how, in human history, states have emerged and become mighty, but it is inappropriate for the normative question that is the question of legitimacy (what type of state should there be?).
Now on the other hand the democratists say that the state is justified when it is popular. But why should that be? If you assume, empirically, that people have different levels of moral aptitude, then popularity immediately appears to be a formula to craft a wicked state. The only deeper justification is that popularity probably correlates with mightiness. But this is just a thin veneer over the first position.
So said Thrasymachus:
In the Gorgias, Socrates makes the link to democracy explicit, and Callicles agrees:
But Callicles then points out the absurdity of democracy:
I agree, rather, with Socrates (and Plato?) that the aristocratic rule by virtue is more just than the democracy. And likewise the most legitimate state is the state of Reason (or what was called philosophy). I believe in modern times, Francis Galton and Friedrich Nietzsche have shown us the way to establish a legitimate state.
Galton:
Now this brings me to Israel. Israel is a recent example of state foundation, by which I mean the art of creating a new state. It was founded in 1948 by a population made up largely of recent immigrants; for well over a thousand years Jews had been but a small minority in the region; for nearly two thousand there was no Jewish state.
Now, what kind of state is Israel? Obviously, it is Jewish. But it is also democratic. And it seems to premise its existence on the dwelling of the Jewish immigrants in the region. What inferences can we make here regarding probable hypotheses in the science of state? For one, we can guess that Israel and states like it depend on the influx of people into its vicinity for its sustenance. In other words Israel is predicated on the mass immigration of aliyah; the Jewish population grew from about 25,000 in the 1880s to about 630,000 by 1948, mostly through immigration. It is merely, then, the armed and coercive organisation of that population.
What sort of just foundation is that? Consider this: when one man declares himself sovereign, he is a laughing stock, like an ape. When a few men do it, they are criminals; yet when many men do it, I am supposed to profess that they are just?
I would prefer to keep my reason and see all such founders, not only Israel's, as laughing-stocks and criminals. Thus, I see Israel as the farce of state foundation. For before Israel we knew the way to the just state; yet it was the Torah and its aliyah which led to the foundation of Israel, a state not unlike all previous states, and all of its rivals in the region. There is nothing new or elevated about Israel. What is the higher purpose?
And if Israel is farce, who then is the tragedy? One does not have to look far; it is Israel's greatest ally, or should I say its uncle, old Samuel. For the United States was founded on philosophy, it was founded on higher ideals. But its ideals were flawed, because its philosophers were flawed, and so were its people. It started as an oligarchy, that saw itself as an aristocracy, and it never knew true justice. As Plato would predict, it degenerated to a democracy, and lost most of what apprehension of virtue it had, and now many say it is on the road to tyranny.
Imagine what could be done with North America if it were not already settled! That is the tragedy. And the farce is all the effort put in to crowding out the Muslims in Palestine, for nothing higher at all. The situation is so dire that people dream of settling Mars, a desert with no water and no breathable air, because at least it is not yet scourged by a state. Galton had the same dream:
Some will say all of this is silly because it is impossible. But we know true aliyah is not impossible; Galton showed us that much. If Israel were impossible, it would not be because of the Jews. It would be because of the gentiles. So too, if true Israel is impossible, it is because the true gentiles block the true aliyah of the true Jews. (Sozusagen). Ask yourself, are you a Jew or a Gentile? Is it just for the gentiles to stop the Jews? And how should Jews feel, if they are stopped?
To be plain, since the above is metaphor (which I think has value in itself): I am not talking about actual Jews or gentiles. Zionism showed that a scattered people can migrate and found a state within a few decades; Galton showed what kind of state would be worth founding. By «true Israel» I mean a state founded on reason and on Galton's eugenics rather than on scripture. By «true aliyah» I mean the migration of the people who want such a state to a place where they can found it. By «true Jews» I mean those founders, and by «true gentiles» the existing states and peoples who would stop them. So the question I am asking is: would it be just for existing states to block the founding of a better one, and would its founders be wronged if they were blocked?
At the risk of looking like I've spent too much time watching Europa Universalis 4 gameplay, I will point out a third theory, diplomatic to go with your military and administrative: a country is legitimate in proportion to its recognition as legitimate by the "international community" of other countries (constitutive theory of statehood). A formerly legitimate country that makes too many other countries angry (e. g., by violating international law with aggressive wars) can become illegitimate.
Declarative theory and consent of the governed, but not constitutive theory: A government loved by its people but not recognized by other countries (Somaliland, revolutionary France)
Declarative theory and constitutive theory, but not consent of the governed: A tyrannical government whose internal atrocities other governments refrain from condemning
Consent of the governed and constitutive theory, but not declarative theory: A government in exile still loved by its people and still acknowledged as the rightful ruler by the international community even though it controls nothing
I reject that as a normative theory of state, however it is clear it is a useful component for a science of state. Yes, an unrecognized state will have certain issues a recognized one will not have. However, its recognition has no causal influence on its just foundation (because assigning worth to the opinions of unjust states is the same as assigning worth to the opinions of unjust men. it is the same as democracy).
It's hard to know what to say about this phrasing. On its face it seems to demand unanimous consent. It's hard to know what that should mean for war and people of poor character. If it is taken to mean less than unanimous consent then it is « democratic moralism » wearing a mask. That it feels the need to wear such a mask, I think, indicates something about the correctness of the idea. Too many modern philosophical terms appear to wear masks like this, which is why I look down on almost every name in that article as beneath reading. I think it would stunt the discussion to lower it to the level of comparing and contrasting the « theories » of Locke and Hobbes the « philosophers ».
As an aside, maybe it means something that the first reference in that article is to Tertullian, whose theology I harshly criticized in my last post. Maybe those things are linked?
Before this discussion goes any further, what would be your response to Herodotus?
In the parable of the Persian king, asked the Greeks what sum they would take to eat their dead fathers, they reacted in horror. To the Callatiae, he asked what they would do to burn their dead, and they similarly reacted in disgust. To which the historian reaches the conclusion that custom (nomos) is supreme, the king of all things.
Justice, it seems to me, is the effect of a body of custom. And if we cannot come to a consensus of custom, then every nation is an island in an sea of barbarism, and we'd best be suited to wipe each other out. So that is the compromise: and why an unjust state's opinions are just as valid as a just one's, because everyone believes that their custom is best. (Yes, even the liberal self-critical postmodernist one.) The least common denominator is the only thing that can survive, which seems to be a poor way to assess the validity of states. But without a universal measure of justice, what else can be done?
Custom is simply democracy. If Socrates, Plato, or Henry Thompson say in reason that burning the dead is good, then it is good.
The universal measure, I think, exists. It is called λόγος. This is the premise of Plato's Republic and without it I think it is true that all you can do is a type of democracy.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link