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PaperclipPerfector  8d ago (text post)   27438 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 2, 2026

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Israel's wars justify their state. If Israel is unjustified today or tomorrow, it's because they can't do what they did in 1967. Hopefully they take Cairo next time, just for the kino desert warfare manoeuvers, but we'll see.

This is just might makes right, which as I said:

On the one hand, the might-makes-right people say that the state is self-justifying. It exists, it has might, therefore obey it, end of discussion. This is unsatisfying in that it essentially dodges the topic of discussion. As such it is not really a valid answer to the question of legitimacy; rather it implicitly denies that there is any question to be had at all. Might makes right might be a good starting point for a science of state, which investigates how, in human history, states have emerged and become mighty, but it is inappropriate for the normative question that is the question of legitimacy (what type of state should there be?).

This is just might makes right

I agree, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that "might makes right" is difficult to get away from.

So for example, if I understand your post correctly, you incorrectly implied that there had been an Arab state in Palestine immediately before the founding of Jewish Israel. In reality, the land had been under control of the Ottoman Empire, which had conquered the area previously from someone else. Who conquered it from someone else. And so on back to the Arab conquerors. Who conquered the area from someone else. And so on.

So yes, there was an Arab state there at one point. And countless others as well.

If you point to one state (or one group of people) as being the legitimate owner of an area, you are implicitly endorsing "might makes right" -- at least in the Middle East, since all of the land there has been repeatedly invaded and conquered countless times.

Even if the Arab state had been in control of Palestine immediately prior to the founding of Israel, it's difficult to see how this makes a difference. Because that Arab state would have been established the same way as any other state in the area -- conquest.

So for example, if I understand your post correctly, you incorrectly implied that there had been an Arab state in Palestine immediately before the founding of Jewish Israel.

This is not central to the post. Central to the post is the moral measurement of state.

In reality, the land had been under control of the Ottoman Empire, which had conquered the area previously from someone else. Who conquered it from someone else. And so on back to the Arab conquerors. Who conquered the area from someone else. And so on.

Yep, I assume everyone over the age of 12 knows that in history, people conquer other peoples. Have you read about the Jews and the Canaanites?

If you point to one state (or one group of people) as being the legitimate owner of an area, you are implicitly endorsing "might makes right" -- at least in the Middle East, since all of the land there has been repeatedly invaded and conquered countless times.

Good thing I didn't say the Muslims were entitled to it. I said it was a waste to take it from them merely to establish Israel.

It's like you really want to have this mundane argument that exists within the bounds of what a politician might say about Israel, in a democracy, but you're missing that I want to have a higher argument about the moral measurement of states.

Good thing I didn't say the Muslims were entitled to it. I said it was a waste to take it from them merely to establish Israel.

I disagree with the phrase "take it from them," since it presupposes that a particular group owns an area and you haven't offered any evidence or argument which establishes such ownership. You just assume it.

But even putting that aside, you seem to be saying that one state of affairs (Muslim control of Palestine) was morally preferable to another state of affairs (Jewish control of Palestine). Do I misunderstand you? If I do, what exactly was being "wasted" by the foundation of Israel?

Religious makeup of Mandatory Palestine, per the 1922 census (total population 757,182):

Religion Population Share
Muslims 590,890 78.0%
Jews 83,794 11.1%
Christians 73,024 9.6%
Druze 7,028 0.9%
Sikhs 408 0.05%
Baháʼís 265 0.03%
Samaritans 163 0.02%
Metawalis 156 0.02%

Thanks for posting this. Probably it's worth noting that in 1922, British Mandatory Palestine was far far bigger than 1948 Israel. It included what is now Jordan; Gaza; and J & S.

That being said, I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that due to the Muslim super-majority in British Mandatory Palestine, the entire Mandate belonged to Muslims in some sense, even areas which had been predominantly Jewish?

Are you saying that Muslim control of the entire Mandate area was preferable to any other state of affairs, such as the existence of a Jewish state on a modest percentage of the Mandate area with the rest of the Mandate being under Arab (or Muslim) control?

Probably it's worth noting that in 1922, British Mandatory Palestine was far far bigger than 1948 Israel. It included what is now Jordan; Gaza; and J & S.

The 1922 census did not cover Transjordan at all, since it was run separately as an emirate under Abdullah from 1921. So the figures are for the area west of the Jordan, roughly today's Israel, Gaza and the West Bank, which is only slightly larger than Israel. Within that area, Jews were about one in nine when Ottoman rule ended.

The 1922 census did not cover Transjordan at all

Thanks for pointing it out. In any event, your figures contradict your claim that the area was "crowded Muslim land" at the time. 757,000 is about 7 percent of the current population of Israel.

I'm still not sure what your point is though.

Are you saying that due to the Muslim super-majority in British Mandatory Palestine, the entire Mandate belonged to Muslims in some sense, even areas which had been predominantly Jewish?

Are you saying that Muslim control of the entire Mandate area was preferable to any other state of affairs, such as the existence of a Jewish state on a modest percentage of the Mandate area with the rest of the Mandate being under Arab (or Muslim) control?

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