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Goodguy  4d ago (text post)   Edited 4d ago   10158 thread views

Midterms Megathread

Cause otherwise midterms discussion will be scattered around a bunch of separate Culture War thread posts. And it's nice to have more off-the-cuff rapid reactions in a dedicated megathread.

The first thing I've noticed so far: if the exit polls are correct, Americans are very pessimistic about AI.

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I mean this is the issue in question on the Trans thing.

You've got 4 possible positions in the court of Trans Radicals.

  • Constant cloying approval of everything. 'Decent human being'
  • Complete silence. 'Highly suspicious but we'll let it roll'
  • Arguing that they shouldn't be allowed into women's spaces and are distinct from biological women 'Turbohitler'
  • Arguing that the Quran says they should be thrown off buildings 'Misguided but wholesome allyship'

Arguing that they shouldn't be allowed into women's spaces and are distinct from biological women

Philosophical arguments about whether trans women are "really" women are largely separate from the question of how they should be treated, though of course there is a strong correlation between people's views on these two questions.

A "moderate" position could be that trans women aren't "really" women, but that they should be treated as if they were. A slightly less "moderate" position could be that trans women shouldn't be allowed in "women's spaces", but we should still use their preferred pronouns. And so forth. Rowling doesn't even support using people's preferred pronouns. She believes trans women should be treated exactly like men; that they should not be given any recognition whatsoever. How is this "moderate"? What would be a less "moderate" stance that still comes short of advocating trans people's extermination? Advocating their imprisonment instead, I guess?

Arguing that the Quran says they should be thrown off buildings 'Misguided but wholesome allyship'

Is there actually anything in the Quran directed at trans people specifically? Iran is fairly progressive on trans rights. I don't think that would be possible if the Quran said trans people should be thrown off buildings.

I said this fairly recently, but it keeps popping up. Iran is NOT progressive on trans issues. They force gay men to transition on threat of death so that when one of their gay Imams is inevitably caught, they have a religious rules-lawyered way to claim he was actually just having sex with a woman. It’s arriving at trans rights via horror movie logic.

Yes, they do sometimes force gay men to transition to make them "straight", but all that means is that they're only progressive on trans issues, not LGB issues. In Iran, these are considered separate, not interrelated as they are in the West.

so that when one of their gay Imams is inevitably caught, they have a religious rules-lawyered way to claim he was actually just having sex with a woman.

Are you claiming that was the original motivation to allow transition? It's at most an unintended benefit (for the regime).

Is there actually anything in the Quran directed at trans people specifically? Iran is fairly progressive on trans rights. I don't think that would be possible if the Quran said trans people should be thrown off buildings.

The Iran progressive trans thing is enormously overblown and also intensely controversial with other practitioners of Islam.

Philosophical arguments about whether trans women are "really" women are largely separate from the question of how they should be treated, though of course there is a strong correlation between people's views on these two questions.

They could theoretically be, but they're not. "Trans women are women" was used as the argument for putting trans people on opposite-sex sports, prisons, and all sorts of spaces.

Rowling doesn't even support using people's preferred pronouns. She believes trans women should be treated exactly like men; that they should not be given any recognition whatsoever. How is this "moderate"?

Because it allows them to live their life however they wish as long as they don't impose their beliefs on others. Compelling the use of preferred pronouns is as moderate as Muslims forcing infidels to pray to Allah 5 times per day, instead of also compelling the to participate in Ramandan fasts.

Because it allows them to live their life however they wish as long as they don't impose their beliefs on others.

Sharing a public toilet does not entail the imposition of philosophical or any other beliefs. Communists, liberals and fascists; monarchists and republicans; Christians, Muslims, Hindus and atheists share toilets every day with no difficulty.

Compelling the use of preferred pronouns

You could object to cancellation, etc., on free speech grounds, etc., but the personal decision to use or not use people's preferred pronouns has nothing to do with "compelling".

I repeat: What would be a less "moderate" stance that still comes short of advocating trans people's extermination? Advocating their imprisonment instead, I guess?

Sharing a public toilet does not entail the imposition of philosophical or any other beliefs.

We were talking about pronouns, no? Sex segregation in intimate places like toilets have to do with safety and comfort, stemming from psychological differences between men and women.

You could object to cancellation, etc., on free speech grounds, etc., but the personal decision to use or not use people's preferred pronouns has nothing to do with "compelling".

I don't see where Rowling said people *shouldn't * use preferred pronouns, you're the one saying that they should, and that this belief is somehow moderate.

I repeat: What would be a less "moderate" stance that still comes short of advocating trans people's extermination? Advocating their imprisonment instead, I guess?

There's a law being debated in the UK right now that would penalize parents and therapists for questioning children's transitions. The overwhelming majority of he trans memeplex is much more extreme than anything Rowling has advocated.

There's a law being debated in the UK right now that would penalize parents and therapists for questioning children's transitions. The overwhelming majority of he trans memeplex is much more extreme than anything Rowling has advocated.

I'm sorry, but to me this seems like a non sequitur. I'm not talking about the left end of the spectrum. I'm asking, on the centre-to-right side of the spectrum, what position is there between that held by Rowling and advocating imprisonment or execution for being trans (which you will surely agree is the very far-right end of the spectrum)?

advocating imprisonment or execution for being trans (which you will surely agree is the very far-right end of the spectrum)

No, it is not. The very far-right is executing everyone who is even aware of the concept of transgenderism. I'm too selfish to hold it, but it is tempting.

So, everyone? Maybe excluding a few isolated tribes in the Amazon and the North Sentinelese?

I'm talking about going case-by-case, not on a group basis. But if it comes to that, then sure, everyone except Amazon tribes. Extraordinary circumstances justify extraordinary responses.

What I want to underline is that in addition to how @ArjinFerman pointed out you acting with a lack of imagination about any positions between Rowling's and trans execution, there is also no thought about how trans execution is not the furthest right position. A planetary exterminatus to destroy an idea is more from the realm of sci-fi, but locally killing all trans people and all people who support and ally with trans people is in the realm of the real world.

Sorry, I actually have to make a correction, and say it appears the proposed UK law is not that bad. I can probably find ones that are from other countries that are. Anyway, it seems you don't care either way:

EDIT: Actually I take that back, the UK bill claims to limit itself to abusive behavior, but defines it as, among other things:

(c) controlling or coercive words or behaviour;
(d) use of economic pressure;
(e) use of psychological or emotional pressure.

So it does seem pretty bad.

I'm sorry, but to me this seems like a non sequitur. I'm not talking about the left end of the spectrum. I'm asking, on the centre-to-right side of the spectrum, what position is there between that held by Rowling and advocating imprisonment or execution for being trans (which you will surely agree is the very far-right end of the spectrum)?

By analogy, bans on gender affirming care would be a good example. You can also split them by who they apply to, like bans on GAC for children (I think that's the majority of the passed laws) are more moderate than blanket bans.

Or even with the pronouns example we started from: creating social pressure for everyone to use pronouns based off biological sex, rather than just letting people use whatever they want (some TERFs actually do this) is less moderate than JK Rowling's position.

I really don't understand this selective lack of imagination on your part.

By analogy, bans on gender affirming care would be a good example. You can also split them by who they apply to, like bans on GAC for children (I think that's the majority of the passed laws) are more moderate than blanket bans.

How would such a ban be enforced if not by criminal sanctions, i.e., imprisonment or execution? Okay, I suppose you could fine people, but I can't imagine that being a very effective deterrent, and an anti-trans government would certainly want something more forceful. To compare our hypothetical to a real-life instance of medical procedures being criminalized, performing an abortion can get you life imprisonment in Texas. Evidently they thought fines were insufficient. You could perhaps nitpick over whether the trans person would be prosecuted or only the person performing the procedure.

Or even with the pronouns example we started from: creating social pressure for everyone to use pronouns based off biological sex, rather than just letting people use whatever they want (some TERFs actually do this) is less moderate than JK Rowling's position.

I will concede that there is a difference between refusing to personally use trans people's preferred pronouns and creating social pressure for others to refuse. Furthermore, mere social pressure is not necessarily equivalent to a legal ban (which again would run into the question of enforcement), so that would be another step to the right, though some more traditional societies can be very forceful about extralegal enforcement of social norms.

But do we know if Rowling is actually indifferent regarding other people's pronoun usage? A person as prominent as her publicly and vocally refusing to use preferred pronouns is bound to have an effect on the discourse. I suspect she would be happy if her advocacy resulted in more people refusing to use trans people's preferred pronouns. Is that not a kind of "social pressure"?

How would such a ban be enforced if not by criminal sanctions, i.e., imprisonment or execution?

I mean, you answered your own question. Fines, taking away a medical license, exposure to malpractice lawsuits.Yes in some states prison sentences are on the table as well, this is hardly an extreme either, we do that all the time with things like female circumcision, euthanasia, elective amputations, or human cloning.

and an anti-trans government would certainly want something more forceful

To compare our hypothetical to a real-life instance of medical procedures being criminalized

This isn't a hypothetical, these laws are already passed in various states,and you're assuming the conclusion here when you say "criminalized". Banning does not imply criminal charges. Some states criminalize it, some (the majority, from what I understand) don't.

Anyway, what's the point of these questions? You asked what's less moderate than JK Rowling's position, I gave you two examples of real, actually existing things that meet the criteria. Why are you cherry-picking their practicality now?

though some more traditional societies can be very forceful about extralegal enforcement of social norms.

Yes, as are progressive societies about theirs. This just shows that there are many steps on either side of the spectrum, and it doesn't hit a wall with JK Rowling's position.

But do we know if Rowling is actually indifferent regarding other people's pronoun usage?

The burden of proof is on the person making the accusation, if you want to say "there's nothing remotely moderate about Rowling's position" and it's on you to show how her position is extreme, not declare that since we can't prove that she didn't take a more extreme position, your original claim must be true by default, or mind-read her about what results of her advocacy she'd be happy with.

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