site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   36603 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 3, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

12
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

America might well tire of war as well. After X years of propping up Ukrainian military forces against Russia, as well as the billions in aide given, eventually the desire to enter yet another proxy war in Taiwan sending money and planes and ships will be unpopular. Already seeing people on Twitter showing homeless people on the streets, broken buildings, and objecting that we need the money at home.

people on Twitter showing homeless people on the streets

The homeless industrial complex is a bottomless pit for tax dollars. I'd frankly rather spend the money on weapons and then give the weapons to (sort of) friendly governments.

I’m not saying that homelessness can be solved by merely diverting funds. But I think it’s a shift in sentiment from “rah rah, whatever it takes to free Ukraine from Russians!” Ukrainian flags all over Facebook, and so on, to a “look at all the problems we have at home that we could be spending our taxpayer dollars on. Whether or not the redirection of those funds would make a difference in those specific issues isn’t really the point. The point is waning support for the spending on Ukrainian infrastructure and defense.

If we end up trying to do the same on two fronts, Taiwan and Ukraine, with waning support for any level of involvement, I don’t see it being publicly supported. And with the 2024 election coming, I think war is going to be a major campaign issue. If sentiment is moving against our involvement in these wars, then we can’t keep going.

Homelessness is a political problem, specifically relating to local politics, not a money problem. An extra $100 billion in the federal budget wouldn't do anything.

I'm not sure what you mean by "broken buildings". You could photograph cherry-picked decrepit buildings at any point in US history. It doesn't mean anything.

Wait until they see Sherman’s March to the Sea.

If the State Department's ostensible idea of exhausting Russia by funding endless war ends up costing America one of its major strategic goals instead, it'll have to be remembered as one of the most idiotic stratagems of history.

I'm not counting on it, but it wouldn't surprise me. It's commonly pointed out that despite being extremely enthusiastic about war, Americans can hardly sustain their interest in it, which is what cost them Vietnam and Afghanistan.

Playing for attrition when you're famous for losing against weak opponents that just waited you out didn't sound like the greatest of ideas in the first place.

Who knows what's gonna happen though.

Playing for attrition when you're famous for losing against weak opponents that just waited you out didn't sound like the greatest of ideas in the first place.

But the Ukraine-Russia war is more analogous to the USSR vs. the Mujahideen, in that the US is not the one sending its troops. The differences are that the Ukrainians are fighting on worse terrain, but with better equipment, and against a relatively weaker power (Russia is a faint shadow of the USSR).

All true statements.

Although I must say my original pronostic back at the old place was that Ukraine would certainly lose precisely because wins in this kind of configuration are historically very reliant on terrain advantage.

We'll see if the West can compensate with matériel and intelligence, but since this has turned into world war style static fronts and artillery battles it's really manpower that's going to be the deciding factor and I don't see how Ukraine has a possible win on that.

Although I must say my original pronostic back at the old place was that Ukraine would certainly lose precisely because wins in this kind of configuration are historically very reliant on terrain advantage.

I would agree, but for the fact that the conventional gap between Russia and Ukraine is relatively small.

I'm not sure how analogous the situations are. The Ukraine War is essentially a freebie for the United States: throw a pittance at Ukraine and watch Russia's soldiers get tossed into a meat grinder. A war over Taiwan would be far costlier both economically (which would increase domestic pressures to give up) and in terms of human life (which would increase domestic pressures to fight to the bitter end; tens of thousands of dead soldiers is a rallying cry). It wouldn't be a proxy war.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats