site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 3, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

12
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

When you go from 'racism is a property of uniquely evil people called nazis' + 'evil nazis want to kill Jews because they are the good guys' to

'racism is your uniquely original sin and there is nothing you can do to wash it away' + 'somehow this does not apply to similar-looking people called Jews because it just doesn't'.

At some point the people targeted by #2 are going to wonder about #1 and how and why the uniquely evil nazis that they are made to identify with felt about the suspiciously similar but immune people.

Something's gotta give.

The only way to stop antisemitism is identical to the only way to stop racism, for Jews to assimilate. Unlike various races that have been more than happy to blend in together, the current Jews are descended from people that ferociously refused to.

While Jews enjoy a pretty comfortable situation at the top of American society, from an economic, social, prestige pov, they are not satisfied until the goyim grovel and endlessly apologize, even if they are billionaires, even if they are minorities, even if they are beloved, high status entertainment figures.

That's not sustainable.

The only way to stop antisemitism is identical to the only way to stop racism, for Jews to assimilate.

Jews have assimilated pretty well in the US. Unless you mean they should literally stop being Jews?

While Jews enjoy a pretty comfortable situation at the top of American society, from an economic, social, prestige pov, they are not satisfied until the goyim grovel and endlessly apologize

This is just vilifying your outgroup without evidence. (Not modhatted, because I'm in the conversation, but you should know better.)

Unless you mean they should literally stop being Jews?

If by 'being Jews' you refer to '(1)only allowing blood-related people into your religion, claiming that only blood-relation can make you Jewish and (2) the whole other host of beliefs associated with the Holocaust/progressive worldview related to white people and institutions they like being intrinsically racist'.

(2) being most obviously exemplified by the memetic double claim 'fellow white people now is time to end racism/whiteness etc' + 'I'm not white I'm Jewish' when time comes to explain why affirmative action somehow does not apply to Jewish-heavy institutions.

Then yes.

But guess what, that is implicitly and sometimes explicitly what is demanded of white people. 'stop supporting whiteness'.

'stop surrounding yourself with other white people' / 'stop excluding non-whites' / 'stop taking non-whites' space [in formerly white-built institutions]

Why wouldn't it be more inclusive to have every synagogue open to worship Mohammed or even Hitler?

This is just vilifying your outgroup without evidence.

Well then not all Jews (NAJ).

Just the handful of ones that hold such power that they can get a beloved entertainment billionaire African-American to lose a money-printing contract with a sports clothing company.

[ADL & co / Kanye West / Adidas]

But uh oh isn't that an antisemitic trope to claim that a handful of Jews have disproportionate power?!

If by 'being Jews' you refer to '(1)only allowing blood-related people into your religion, claiming that only blood-relation can make you Jewish

This is not a requirement to be Jewish. They do not go looking for converts, but it is possible to convert into Judaism.

and (2) the whole other host of beliefs associated with the Holocaust/progressive worldview related to white people and institutions they like being intrinsically racist'.

This isn't a component of Judaism, and while it may be a fair description of many (not all) socially liberal Jews, it's not a defining characteristic of "Jewishness."

Your main objection seems to be specifically about contemporary leftist SJ-aligned Jews, yet you made reference to historical "ferocious" refusal to assimilate.

Well then not all Jews (NAJ).

Just the handful of ones that hold such power that they can get a beloved entertainment billionaire African-American to lose a money-printing contract with a sports clothing company.

Even if we go with "Jews control Hollywood," yeah, that's still a long shot from saying "Jews cause anti-Semitism because they all cancelled Kanye and are afraid of being Holocausted and won't assimilate."

This is not a requirement to be Jewish. They do not go looking for converts, but it is possible to convert into Judaism.

Not a very common thing to see. At least we can admit that they are pretty insular people.

In the one country where there is a large amount of them, Israel, they can't really be said to be very nice to the non-Jews.

This isn't a component of Judaism, and while it may be a fair description of many (not all) socially liberal Jews, it's not a defining characteristic of "Jewishness."

Your main objection seems to be specifically about contemporary leftist SJ-aligned Jews, yet you made reference to historical "ferocious" refusal to assimilate.

Well, yes. Refusal to assimilate. All the Jews that decided to assimilate converted to Christianity, 2000 years ago.

All the Jews that exist now descend from people that had a chance to convert at some point, and decided not to.

And they've taught their descendants not to.

Similarly to the Amish. The Amish exist because they descend from a line of people that decided not to adopt technology and to teach their children not to. There are very few converts.

At any point in time an Amish person can decide to stop living the Amish life. Sure, they could still be considered Amish, but their children or grand-children would not.

The difference between the Amish and the Jews is that the Amish don't control banking and media corporations, don't control people's livelihood, what they buy, are allowed to buy or what they are allowed to think, who they are allowed to vote for.

Imagine if the owner of TheMotte was talking trash about the Amish and the Amish somehow coordinated with payment processing systems, internet infrastructure companies, other corporations to force the owner to close the website.

And when they would try go tell somebody about these events, their media invites would get cancelled or the media that did decide to host them would get banned from internet infrastructure companies, payment processing companies, etc.

This is what happens very often if not always when somebody talks trash about the Jews.

that's still a long shot from saying "Jews cause anti-Semitism because they all cancelled Kanye and are afraid of being Holocausted and won't assimilate."

This would be fair if that was the first time this ever happened.

Rick Sanchez had the same issues in the 2010s.

Norm was joking about it in the 90s

My point of view is that a conspiracy does not need to exist for the results that we see.

I think that Jews in general, going through the historical selection that they went through, led them to inherit characteristics of people that not only cannot assimilate to a wider body of humanity, but also constantly feel under attack from the majority of humanity, and tend to overreact to that perceived attack, therefore triggering resentment.

Kind of like the common psychological phenomenon of somebody feeling insecure, thinking that everybody is constantly judging or scrutinizing them, therefore projecting an aura of awkwardness wherever they go, and causing people to perceive them as they self-evaluate.

These people find each over and bond over their uniqueness and their vulnerability against the rest of the mean world, and when inevitably their behavior causes the rest of the tribe to suffer, they are the first out the door, and the most likely to survive!

Who is most likely to survive a banking riot, the honest guy that doesn't really have any opinion about banking, or the insider Sam Bankman-Fried, who knows that there's a lot of bad things happening in banking, and if they're not coming for him, the pitchforks outside the windows are not good news anyway?

The easiest for rich, powerful Jews to get others to like them, is to personify noblesse oblige.

Be generous with your money, share your wealth, be a role model for others.

What do so many of them do?

George Soros goes and hires people to make US cities more dangerous (soft on crime DAs).

Others found organizations to help people illegally immigrate to the US (break the laws that protect the American people).

Sam Bankman Fried goes and scams a bunch of do-gooders who wanted to improve charity.

And of course the endless stream of progressive media 'stop whiteness now', 'you are racist for having standards of how your country should be that rich Jews disagree with' etc.

This is historical too. So many Jews could not stand that Americans had a right to self-association so they funded the Civil Rights movement.

The Amish like their life a certain way, they like to live among themselves and not mingle with others, like the Jews, but they're not forcing or even coercing anyone else to live their beliefs, drop their borders, accommodate foreigners, accommodate sexual minorities, drug addicts, etc.

The difference between the Amish and the Jews is that the Amish don't control banking and media corporations, don't control people's livelihood, what they buy, are allowed to buy or what they are allowed to think, who they are allowed to vote for.

"The Jews" don't control banking and media corporations - specific Jews do - and they're not uniformly Jewish. As I keep banging on about, Jews come in all sorts of different groups, and increasingly they're not even all that Jewish at all.

Specific Jews do the unbanking.

Specific Jews do the media influencing.

Specific Jews do the ADL, AIPAC, soft-on-crime DA, gun control, illegal immigrant charity... funding.

Specific Jews write the opinion pieces about how all white people are racist.

Specific Jews theorize the critical race, gender, border theories and teach them in colleges.

When you add them all up that ends up making a lot of specific individuals, but that still doesn't add up to the full Jewish population.

What are the other ones doing?

Are they coming out and saying 'us representatives of the Jewish bowling club of Broward County Florida, would like to address the egregious accusations against Kanye West / Nick Fuentes / etc, and show our support...'?

I haven't seen it.

If somebody happens to be an individual Jew who absolutely hates to see right-wing people get banned from media, people lose their job over criticism of powerful people, people get smeared every day for their skin color and other such things.

Then good for them.

But what I would call 'Team Jew' is absolutely opposed to them.

If that one individual is unable to shut down 'Team Jew', to tell their family members, cousins, in-laws, synagogue fellows, other members of the Jewish bowling club etc, to stop being part of Team Jew...

...well then they might become a casualty of the inevitable wave of 'antisemitism' (resentment against 'Team Jew').

That's not a threat, it just seems like a law of nature to me.

No nation in this whole world will endlessly tolerate a small group of people that is constantly undermining the majority

(which is what I perceive 'Team Jew' to be doing, which you may disagree with).

Specific Jews do the unbanking. . . . media influencing . . . etc.

So do a lot of gentiles - doubly so regarding the idea that "all white people are racist" - that call's coming from inside the Gentile house (Robin DiAngelo, Ibram Kendi - not Jewish). That Jews are overrepresented compared to their population in left political movements or in white-collar knowledge-work does not make the whole edifice somehow "Jewish," anymore than tech is "Indian" because several CEOs have subcontinental heritage.

What are the other ones doing? Are they coming out and saying 'us representatives of the Jewish bowling club of Broward County Florida, would like to address the egregious accusations against Kanye West / Nick Fuentes / etc, and show our support...'?

Increasingly, there is no "Jewish bowling club" (well, maybe in Broward, but who the eff would care what the Jewish Bowling Club in Broward thinks? Why should they think they speak for all Jews?)

Outside of orthodox communities, "Jewish" identity is increasingly attenuated and deracinated. Three quarters of Jews intermarry with the general population. The proportion of people with ethnic jewish heritage who are involved in religious or jewish ethnic community/social groups keeps falling every year, and is now an absolute minority. If you want to know what a person thinks, ask them.

But what I would call 'Team Jew' ...

The fact that you would call it "Team Jew" doesn't make it so.

No nation in this whole world will endlessly tolerate a small group of people that is constantly undermining the majority

History repeatedly shows the opposite. The small, organized, intolerant minority frequently stomps the large, unorganized, apathetic majority. The Bolsheviks were a tiny minority in 1918 Russia. The Jacobins were a tiny minority of the Estates General.

So do a lot of gentiles - doubly so regarding the idea that "all white people are racist" - that call's coming from inside the Gentile house (Robin DiAngelo, Ibram Kendi - not Jewish). That Jews are overrepresented compared to their population in left political movements or in white-collar knowledge-work does not make the whole edifice somehow "Jewish," anymore than tech is "Indian" because several CEOs have subcontinental heritage.

While I agree that Team Jew is mostly non-Jewish, I call it Team Jew because Team Jew cheers for primarily one group, Jews.

Progressives will cheer for a Black man unfairly killed by the police.

Not for a Black man who knows too much about Hollywood.

Some refer to it as the myth of the golem, a creature controlled by a Jewish wizard or something.

Why should they think they speak for all Jews?

It's not whether or not they do, it's just that I have never seen a group that calls itself Jewish that would disagree with the narrative.

Perhaps there is such a group as 'Jews for Liberty' that support Kanye West's right to call out greedy business executives and bankers.

Perhaps there is such a group as 'Jews for the 2nd Amendment' or 'Jews for strong borders'. Stephen Miller would be in that one.

They're just not getting quoted in any of these articles I can find when I look up 'kanye west jewish groups'

first article - the American Jewish Committee (AJC) / the American Jewish Committee (AJC) / StopAntisemitism

second article

American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE) / American Jewish Congress / Jewish Democratic Council of America

Perhaps these nominally Jewish groups only contain 5 individuals and don't represent anybody.

Perhaps it's just a case of People's Front of Judea

Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough for the 'good Jew', sympathetic to people like me. All I get to see are the ones that demand I strip myself of my culture and my resources while never questioning their culture and their resources.

The small, organized, intolerant minority frequently stomps the large, unorganized, apathetic majority. The Bolsheviks were a tiny minority in 1918 Russia. The Jacobins were a tiny minority of the Estates General.

Bolsheviks got purged.

Jacobins managed to take down the whole French people with them, it only took them a handful of centuries to send the whole nation down the drain.

So maybe I'm wrong about that, but I don't see Team Jew having a stronger hand when they finally manage to replace all of the white goyim with much less sympathetic southern folks that have even fewer reasons to care about their past of oppression.