site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   36365 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 10, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

14
Top Bottom New Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

In keeping with that, I will smugly note that I don’t drink that shit anyway and I’ll be cracking an IPA from a real industry underdog - Lagunitas(tm), a tiny subsidiary of a little-known international parent company.

I know at least a few people who actively avoid beers produced by AB InBev and Heineken (owns Lagunitas) and all their subsidiaries. This is harder than it sounds, because it's not always obvious on the packaging. I'm not going to say that I do so exclusively myself, but I do prefer locally-owned brands where possible.

This is harder than it sounds, because it's not always obvious on the packaging

Former brewery owner/operator. The Brewers Association has a campaign called Certified Independent Craft: https://www.brewersassociation.org/independent-craft-brewer-seal/

Rules are you can't be bigger than Yuengling, and you can't be more than 25% owned by a macro-brewer. https://www.brewersassociation.org/statistics-and-data/craft-brewer-definition/

Pretty much every craft brewery that puts product out in cans or bottles has adopted the logo.

So if you actually want to be certain you're not supporting AB InBev, etc., look for the Independent Craft logo.

Small breweries in the US need to sell out as their exit strategy if they want growth, due to post-prohibition regulations that severely limit interstate distribution. They go from tiny to massive in a single step, and the scaling of their recipes, methods, and processes nearly always results in a decline of quality but with a presumable increase in consistency and quality control. They’re not “bad” for being sellouts; they’re typically worse for the drinker in small but noticeable ways.

Yuengling if in your market is independent.

Hopefully it was obvious that I was being tongue in cheek! I do enjoy Lagunitas though...

Personally, I don't make much more than a token effort in that direction, but my personal preferences do tend to run me in the direction smallish breweries, including some that are very local. As a Wisconsin guy, I drink a fair bit of 3 Sheeps and Central Waters. I also enjoy the hyperlocal breweries my area that only have enough capacity to do some minimal canning. But really, there are some fantastic products that come from InBev subsidiaries and I don't see myself excluding something like Goose Island BCS on the basis of the parent company. Buying a fresh, local pale ale or lager gives me a product that I actually enjoy more than nationally distributed products, but if something is good, I'm still going to buy it.

Is it really that hard? I mean I am not drinking as much beer as I used to in my youth, but I see tons of offering from local and semi-local breweries all around. Of course, I'm not sure whether any of them may be owned by somebody who is owned by somebody who is owned by Heineken - but that's way to much effort for me anyway to figure out that. And I don't think on this stage it really matters. But I think beer is one place where one could practically shut out somebody like AB and not suffer much, in fact with almost no additional effort.

Just look for the Independent Craft seal.

It mostly depends how much beer your drink and where you are. Yuengling is local to me so I can practically ignore the whole problem. And I don't drink a lot of beer so if I took a monthly trip to the brewery up the road and bought a six pack, I'd be golden. But I think for a lot of people it presents a problem because they need a cheap local beer when most local beer is expensive.

Seconding Yuengling. It’s easier to whitelist than to blacklist when it comes to these things (or you can just not care like a normal person).

There are better beers, and there are cheaper beers, but there are no better cheep beers

Looks like Yuengling goes for about $22 for a 24 pack these days. I'd rather drink a variety pack from Oskar Blues for the $17 for 15 that I usually see locally. Maybe a buck a beer crosses out of the cheap beer range though. I think the big packs of Founders are still under a buck a beer though.

It's still $15-17 around me depending on beer distributor you go to.

Oh, nice. That's like PBR range.

A man after my own heart. Have you ever toured the brewery? It's great. Fantastic drive through the country, if you take the right route, to get there this time of year.

Is it really that hard?

Strangely, yes. They own a few random really small breweries. Wikipedia lists all of the brands they own, which includes some really small ones that appear tiny and independent at first glance.

Also they were very quiet about that ownership for non political macrobrewery vs microbrewery reasons.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats