site banner

Friday Fun Thread for April 14, 2023

Be advised: this thread is not for serious in-depth discussion of weighty topics (we have a link for that), this thread is not for anything Culture War related. This thread is for Fun. You got jokes? Share 'em. You got silly questions? Ask 'em.

5
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Fun belated Eastertime thought. I’ve been musing over the idea of Christianity causing human domestication in Europe. It strikes me that to get anything out of the Christian ritual, you need (1) obedience to believe what the religion says, (2) empathy and guilt that your sins led to the pain and death of Jesus, and (3) gratitude and love that Jesus took your place on the Cross. As everyone was forced to believe this for so long, those who were the most obedient / domesticated would be getting the most positive emotion from the ritual. The ritual also ensures that the most obedient have the most repentance of sins, which promotes more prosocial behavior. So the Christian ritual itself would have led to some non-negligible increase in gene proliferation among domesticated Europeans. This doesn’t even factor for the effect of a widespread “Jesus” and “Mary” ideal that would influence male and female hierarchies and dating behavior.

Let's flip the just so story: Christianity breeds in the "defect" gene. Pagan religions reward successful adherence with numerous progeny. Genghis Khan was probably really fucking good at mongol religion. A Viking who was really good at viking stuff got a ton of kids by a ton of unhappy women. Confucian cultures allowed for concubines. Even Islam at least allows you to quadruple your take on the up and up. If you choose cooperate, and succeed, you'll have more kids than if you defect.

Men who are good at Christianity have one shot at having one spouse, if she's infertile forget the whole thing. If he's REALLY good at Catholicism, he probably doesn't even get tha. Men who produce tons of kids with lots of different women under Christianity aren't good Christians, they're bad Christians. Bigamists, cheaters, adulterers, fornicators. A rich man who succeeds at Christianity may manage to have seven kids with his spouse, or he may not. A rich man who defects might have children with a half dozen girls.

In Muslim societies it mainly just benefitted the upper class, who has the funds to have more wives. Because early Islam had a loose class system based on progeny of Muhammad, this just guaranteed Muhammad’s children had more children etc

Yes and Muhammad, his children, and his early followers were remarkable for one thing: their ability to get together and cooperate, their submission to the Muslim law and social order, that assabiyah the DR keeps banging on about.

You don't reach the upper class from the lower class, or get to stay in the upper class, if you defect from societal rules too often and too viciously. In Christianity an upper class man could at most father a few bastards like Charles V; in Islam he would have at least four wives bearing as many children as they could. A Christian who obeys societal values cannot have multiple wives bearing him children, a Muslim who obeys societal laws can. Under which system are those who are genetically wired to be obedient to social laws going to produce more progeny and spread those obedient genes further?

The Imam Ali, the Shia commander of the faithful, had twenty seven children. No faithful Christian could hope to match that.

The Islamic world immediately erupted into a civil war after the death of Muhammad, and there were three more “fitnas” (civil war) over the next 120 years.

As opposed to the very orderly, domesticated processes by which the Carolingian succession, the Reformation, the breakup of the Habsburg and Russian empires, and various French/English royal conflicts were handled.

But surely the ancestors of Muhammad were not especially domesticated or obedient if they had bloody infighting in the century that followed Muhammad’s death. This is the problem of privileging a bloodline with polygamy versus a character trait (Christ-like).

But what you're missing is that being Christ like might be upheld as an ideal, but it does not lead to increased offspring, which is the mechanism of selection. I see no reason Christian societies would increase the reproduction or survival of cooperators over other societies, given that extreme cooperators in Christian societies would be more likely to be monogamous, or even celibate. Extreme cooperators in Muslim societies or in Chinese dynastic societies have more opportunities to reproduce.

That’s fair to a degree, but do we even know if these societies selected for these traits? If you obtained resources by being a vicious war lord, or an excellent trader, or simply the child of a war lord, this does not indicate that you have more domesticated traits as usually conceived. While polygamy allows for certain men to have a lot of wives, this could bring about the opposite problem in that you might be picking the wrong men. A society in which only the rich and the warlords have the most children may not actually be what you want to create a safe, prosperous, civilized society. While you want some who are laser-focused on resource acquisition, and some who are focused on power, you want the majority to be a little bit more well-rounded snd peaceful.

More comments