This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I'm surprised no one mentioned Hoppe's physical removal by this point in the thread.
Perhaps, to some, murder is implied by "physical removal;" even if you defend the term as referring to deportation, not every single targeted person may give up their home without a fight. Exile and deportation are inherently forms of violence, IMO: it's said that liberals look at force/violence as a continuum or "dial," where severity can be turned up or down as needed, whereas conservatives view it as a binary or "switch," where it's either basically no response or maximum force. I think it's potentially actually both: violence will start at a low setting, but the high setting is always available in prompt order. Think of how libertarians frame many laws as being enforced at gunpoint, because many laws in America and elsewhere are set and enforced with "men with guns ordered by the government to shoot you" as the ultimate backstop to resistance of laws.
This is to say that I think killing is always implicitly encapsulated in the idea of removal, however bloodlessly you might otherwise envision it. After all, if a far-right party wanted to kick out some Jews with a deportation, but those specific Jews replied with a particularly Laconic "no," then what are the far-righters gonna do? Shrug their shoulders and leave them alone?
(Side thought: I don't know where to look for it right now, but in a thread about what to do about public-transit-abusers (which has become a semi-common topic here), I think I made the elaboration that some of our disagreements about law and order come down to how much violence is permissible to do to serial defectors, and by whom (libertarians/ancaps may favor the ability to just shoot drug users who bug you without repercussion, progressives would rather just accomodate around the issue, far-righters would want state-backed executions, regular conservatives would just want to lock them up in prisons), and what I wrote above reminds me of that.)
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link