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PaperclipPerfector  11mo ago (text post)   2630 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for May 7, 2023

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

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I realise this may come across as stirring the pot, but I hope I've been here long enough to have earned the benefit of the doubt.

In the context of the HBD debate, could someone please ELI5:

  • The concept of heritability and how it relates or doesn't relate to genetic causes of individual or group differences. I am aware of the "books at home" example. Is that all there is to it?

  • What precisely g is?

  • Steelman(!) Turkheimer's position. No, I don't want to hear about his politics.

  • Roughly summarise the position of Kirkegaard et al.

This whole debate always gets technical so quickly that I very often just get lost. I don't want to rehash the arguments here, I would like to understand the basics. But the waters are often so damn muddied (purposely so, I suspect) that it's very hard to get a grasp of what people are even fighting about.

"Books at home" is presumably shorthand for a wide range of parenting practices, and indeed I would bet that it originated as a relatively easily measured proxy for parenting practices.

Btw the graph from here happened to be going around today; it shows a large gap in cognitive skills between identical and fraternal twins, but also a substantial gap between siblings raised together and siblings raised apart. (Note that some small pct of the difference between identical and fraternal twins might conceivably be caused by parenting, since at least in the past parents often tended to treat identical twins identically-- dressing them the same, etc -- which might also manifest itself in forcing both to experience some of the same experiences (eg, if one wanted to take violin lessons, both had to). Again, I would guess that would have a very small effect even if true, but of course that is a guess).

Also, one consideration that I never see mentioned in popular discussion of HBD is potential congenital, but not genetic, causes. Eg if poor people have dumber kids than other people, is it all either genetics or upbringing? Or is some the result of greater propensity for drinking, drug use, poor diet, etc during pregnancy?

Also, one consideration that I never see mentioned in popular discussion of HBD is potential congenital, but not genetic, causes. Eg if poor people have dumber kids than other people, is it all either genetics or upbringing? Or is some the result of greater propensity for drinking, drug use, poor diet, etc during pregnancy?

So if this were a HBD discussion someone would quickly point out that propensity for drinking is also partly genetic, therefore ???

I do not understand why this is brought up so often. Presumably you could claim that there is a policy solution for this (i.e. preventing pregnant women from drinking) and therefore the difference resulting from this type of parenting behaviour (even if it is partly genetic) is not set in stone?

Everything is genetic at some point. Without arms, it is more difficult to steal. Having arms is genetic. Do you deduce that stealing is genetic? Then everything will be genetic. But everything will also be social, political, physical, economical, sexual...

Drinking might be partly genetic, but a woman who has the drinking genes and does not drink (for example because she can't, as there is no alcohol in her country) will have healthier children than a women who drinks even though she has no drinking genes (say someone forces her to drink). So the gene is only relevant as a factor in the drinking behavior. The behavior is everything.

On the other side, if there is an intelligence gene, no circumstance will change the final result: she can live her life however she wishes, it won't change the result. The only important element is whether the children get the gene or not. The behavior is not relevant.

So if this were a HBD discussion someone would quickly point out that propensity for drinking is also partly genetic, therefore ???

Therefore this is a complicated issue, which is part of my point.

I do not understand why this is brought up so often. Presumably you could claim that there is a policy solution for this

  1. Yes, there are obviously potential policy solutions

  2. Why can't it be brought up simply in order to better understand an interesting phenomenon? I saw an article the other day re why dogs cock their heads to the side when people talk to them. I read the article despite it having no policy implications at all.

Just saw this posted today.

https://twitter.com/AporiaMagazine/status/1654233104523968512

It's not just partially genetic. The difference in intelligence between two individuals is mostly genetic. Most people, including the credentialled, naively assume the opposite, thus coming to incorrect conclusions about many social problems. That's one reason it gets mentioned a lot here. The other, more important reason, is that the Motte is one of the only places where a reasonable discusssion about HBD is allowed to take place. If we wanted to talk about baseball, there are a million other forums for that.

My apologies, that was awkwardly phrased on my part. What I meant was that I do not understand how the observation that many environmental factors could also be driven by genetics is a counter-argument to the position that in-between group differences are partly genetic. Yet I very often see that happening in HBD discussions.

Also, one consideration that I never see mentioned in popular discussion of HBD is potential congenital, but not genetic, causes. Eg if poor people have dumber kids than other people, is it all either genetics or upbringing? Or is some the result of greater propensity for drinking, drug use, poor diet, etc during pregnancy?

How is it possible you never saw it mentioned? Twin adoption studies specifically rule out these sorts of issues.

No, they don't. They rule out an argument that some part of the variation between identical twins raised together and apart is caused by the environment in the womb. But it does not rule out an argument that some part of the difference between identical twins born to a poor woman and identical twins born to a middle class person is caused by the environment in the womb.

They do rule out the argument that the variation between groups of identical twins of the same socio-economic class is caused by the environment in the womb, though.

Only if the correlation between identical twins of class X is identical to the correlation between identical twins of class Y. Is that what studies show? Because I know in other contexts the effect of genetics is mediated by socioeconomic status.

They don't need to be identical. The genetic correlation just has to be bigger than the SES correlation within a given SES group. Or you can just look at kids born to rich families but who got adopted out to parents of various classes.

It was my impression that this is what the studies, in fact, show. Maybe an earnest full-HBDer can give a link, I'm just a reluctant and partial one, that prefers the whole thing to be proven false.

They don't need to be identical. The genetic correlation just has to be bigger than the SES correlation within a given SES group

I don’t know what you mean by the SES correlation within a given SES group. Within each SES group, every kid is coded with the same SES. There is no variation in SES to use to calculate correlation, is there?

Regardless, if there is a difference between the pct of variation explained by genetics in twins born to low SES mothers and the pct of variation explained by genetics in twins born to high SES mothers, then that difference is caused by something, right? That is true even if the genetic correlation is enormous.

Or you can just look at kids born to rich families but who got adopted out to parents of various classes

Yes, but my question is whether such studies have ever been done.

I don’t know what you mean by the SES correlation within a given SES group. Within each SES group, every kid is coded with the same SES. There is no variation in SES to use to calculate correlation, is there?

There's still some income variation within a group, no?

Regardless, if there is a difference between the pct of variation explained by genetics in twins born to low SES mothers and the pct of variation explained by genetics in twins born to high SES mothers, then that difference is caused by something, right? That is true even if the genetic correlation is enormous.

Yes, but if the genetic correlation significant (doesn't even have to be enourmous) that already requires us to overhaul the way we talk about social issues. If you want to focus on the environmental things we can do to improve outcomes for people, go right ahead, but you can't presume isms because groups have different outcomes.

Yes, but my question is whether such studies have ever been done.

Once again, I believe so, but it would require digging through ages old SSC / TheMotte posts, or the materials of Kirkegaard / Sailer / Murray. I'm inclined to do neither, as I wish we could bury the whole idea.

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