This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
More crime in the UK: The case against nurse Lucy Letby, charged with 8 murders and another 10 attempts of murder is nearing the end. Lucy Letby was a NICU nurse in Countess of Chester hospital at a time where there was a dramatic increase in mortality of new born infants. She was first arrested i 2018 after 1 year of investigations, and then again in 2019 and 2020 when she was was finally charged.
I have followed the court case which has lasted for 8 months somewhat sporadically, and I think the prosecution has made a strong case. The motive seems to be the thrill and excitement of being in the middle of life and death situations, and even to get the attention of a married doctor she fancied (and might have slept with!) Interestingly, the defense had no expert testimony. Their only witness, except Letby, was a plumper who testified that the ward had a sewage leak coinciding with some of the incidents. What has kept me coming back to this case, is how incredibly plain and even boring, Letby appears outside of these charges. No history of violence or aggression, no weird sexual fetishes, no drug use. They have gone through every last text message and email and not found anything offensive, bar discussing her job and the doctor. She had a normal upringing and good relations with her family. I think its very likely she would never have been a murderer if she didnt have access to vulnerable babies as a nurse, which makes it even more of a headf**k, because the crimes she is charged with are against babies! Its absolutely heinous, and my heart breaks for the helpless parents who had no choice but to trust her with the lives of their newborns. She targeted twins and triplets, and one set of parents lost 2 boys.
So where is the culture war angle? I guess the lack of attention and interest that this case has got is baffling to me. Neither BBC nor The Guardian nor Sky news have had it on their frontpage as far as ive seen this week. BBC has confined the whole story to a regional site for Merseyside: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-65920366
Apparently a nurse potentially being one of the most prolific female serial killers in history, is not all that exciting in todays newsworld. I guess everyone can have their own biases for why this is happening. Is it the "women are wonderful effect", where a female killer is just so bizarre that it does not warrant any closer scrutiny? Would there be some articles about toxic masculinity if it was a male nurse who killed babies to impress a female doctor? Are people just less upset because she is a conventionally beautiful young woman with blond hair and blue eyes? Some redditors seem to think so, as the first doctor to suspect her was Ravi Jayaram, an Indian male. But I dont buy this either. If her looks where protecting her people would be rallying to her defense, which does not seem to be happening either. The case is mostly ignored.
Is the case just too boring?
In 2022 there was a horrific case in Ireland where a young teacher in her twenties named Aisling Murphy was murdered by a complete stranger while out jogging. It dominated news headlines for weeks, and all the usual bromides made the rounds on Irish social media: demands to "stop victim blaming" (I don't recall seeing anyone, ever, suggesting that Murphy was in any way to blame for her murder); accusing all Irish men for being complicit in her death, either for making jokes about sexual assault, or for not calling out their male friends when they did so.
Then they arrested and charged a recent Slovakian immigrant with her murder, and the feminists got real quiet about it, of course.
A few months later, there was an even more horrific story in which a mother set her car on fire with her and her two young children inside: she survived, they didn't. This didn't get half the attention as the previous case. I couldn't help but wondering - why is it that I would be castigated if I said "if you're a mother and you've ever said 'ugh, my boys are driving me up the wall, I could just kill them', you're complicit in the deaths of these two children"? Oh no, it's really a mental health issue, actually the system failed her and she felt she had no choice but to attempt a murder-suicide, someone else should have noticed the warning signs beforehand. It's all so tiresome.
Edit: misremembered the perpetrator as Romanian, he was actually Slovakian. Misremembered the sexes of the two children. Amended.
It's just hypoagency at play. Women aren't considered as responsible as men. This is how you end up with craziness like 'No jail for women' and the like.
Also Feminism is one of the big original Motte and Bailey ideologies. 'Feminism is the radical idea that men and women have equal rights' in theory vs being a pro-advocacy group for women in practice.
The entire "women can never be held responsible for anything" side of the feminist movement is one of the things holding back women the most. If you're ideologically committed to the idea that women are helpless childlike victims who are only capable of reacting and adapting to Male Power, the idea that are capable of leadership and independent agency becomes less tenable.
I entirely agree and feel it is a somewhat departure from the feminism of my childhood, when women wanted to be equal to men also in burdens and responsibility. However I dont necessarily think thats what is going on in this case from Ireland. People generally have a stronger reaction to crime that strikes randomly, and its hard to protect oneself against. Someone murdering their own children, while absolutely horrific, is less likely to make your children less safe.
However that is exactly why Im puzzled this case does not get more attention in the UK. You are rarely more vulnerable than when you or your family need hospital care and you have no choice but to 100% trust the providers. The thought that a intensive care nurse is not just grossly negligent, but is deliberately doing harm is something else...
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link