This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Remember "creeping Sharia Law" that far-right hysterics were warning about 10-15 years ago? Of course it was always ridiculous, but now something pretty amusing has happened.
‘A sense of betrayal’: liberal dismay as Muslim-led US city bans Pride flags
What stood out to me was the support of right-wing activists from nearby towns. So this isn't just a moslem issue, even white Republicans are joined up. Here in Europe, populists like Geert Wilders were often warning about how too many moslem immigrants would threaten liberal values but they've been supplanted by a newer generation of populists that appear to increasingly take a page out of America's right-wing playbook by uniting with moslems against the LGBT crowd.
For liberals it also creates a bizarre spectacle. They've been obsessed with white Christian "fascists" and often turned a blind eye towards immigrants. Many of these immigrants rarely had much in common with them on social issues. They just voted left because of economic interests and the fact that the white left is more likely to let their entire family back home settle in the West.
Another ironic twist is that the supposed "Great Replacement myth" is largely what facilitated this change. Moslems are now a clear supermajority in the city and the change happened relatively quickly. Liberals were demographically replaced by the people they brought in and now feel like they've been hosed. Can't feel much sympathy for those who use immigration as a political weapon against their domestic political enemies.
I don't think this is why Muslims typically vote left. It seems to me that neither immigration policy or welfare policy are major motivators for the Muslims I've talked with.
The two big reasons why they tend to vote left is 1. they are frequently vehemently anti-Israel and 2. they don't like the overt hostility that gets directed their way from the right.
A GOP that managed to shut up about muslims, ran hard against LGBT stuff, and promised to cut aid to Israel would win the Muslim vote easily IMO.
I doubt this. The fact is that the modern right's coalition does not cater to city folks and muslims aggregate in cities.
Don't you have cause and effect mixed up there? The modern right repels muslims and that is part of why they struggle in cities.
Not at all.
Muslim immigrants congregate in cities for the same reason almost all immigrants congregate in cities: They desire to soak up the spillover prosperity generated by the more productive persons in the city. It is very hard to live in a rural area and charge $40/hr to prune the hedges of a Google C-suite character. If you were to live in a rural area, that is a $7/hr job. You get the higher wage by accepting living conditions natives don't, such as 5 to a studio and the like.
What does that have to do with anything? I'm not disputing that Muslims live in cities, or arguing about why.
Living in cities has both causes and effects and attractors.
If Muslims had to settle in places that need them, they wouldnt immigrate.
What do you mean by that? There’s a couple things getting conflated in this thread. Need them, economically, to fill unpleasant jobs? Politically, to win a socially conservative coalition?
More options
Context Copy link
Sounds like the place which is willing to pay $40/hr for some hedge pruning needs people to do hedge pruning a lot more than the place which is only willing to pay $7/hr.
True, but the question we are asking is who gets that $40/hr not whether it is a filled job.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I still fail to see your point.
Modern low skill immigrants go to places where they replace American workers for a slightly reduced wage, resulting in a zero sum game, as now those are just unemployed welfare receiving Americans. They do not (speaking in large % terms here) go found new cities in remote regions to exploit new resources.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link