This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Swedish elections, anyone?
I am far from an expert on this but I found it very interesting and wanted to do a quick post about it. Last Sunday, September 11th, Swedish General Elections were held to elect the 349 members of the Riksdag. There are 8 parties that seem like they were get seats, and it appears that they are broadly split into two coalitions - of course, today we naturally refer to them as the 'left coalition' (Social democrats, Greens, Left, Center), and the 'right coalition' (Moderates, Sweden Democrats, Liberals, Christian Democrats).
If you've followed any European elections in the last few years you won't be surprised that immigration appears to be a huge issue, and the rise of the right-wing, anti-immigration party (the Sweden Democrats, not to be confused with the Social Democrats) will of course mirror the rise in support for Le Pen, Lega Nord, etc.
But this time - it appears they won. Well, sort of. The elections are so tight that as of Monday night in Sweden, they're still counting the votes. But all the recent indications point to the right coalition winning the slimmest of majorities - 175 to 174 seats. Furthermore, while it was expected that the Moderate party (center-right) that would be the biggest in the right coalition, it appears that the Sweden Democrats (I think universally regarded as the farthest right) that will be the largest in the coalition, and the second largest overall, after the Social Democrats.
There's so much to say, though much of it has been said in discussions about France and Italy and so on and so forth. Seriously, I could rant about this shit for hours - about how immigration can be awesome, but not uncontrolled immigration of those who despise your way of life, about how the strategy of hiding data and gaslighting the public ultimately doesn't pay off, about the naivety and hubris of thinking that anyone that you let live near you will automatically adopt your values, and on and on and on. But most of it won't be new.
One thing that does feel... maybe kind of new(?) this time, is that the media reaction also seems somewhat more subdued, both before and during the election. Of course, most traditional / legacy media will still be tell you, or at least hint to you, that the results are a Bad thing[1] and that Bad people just got a lot of votes, but on balance it still feels... a bit more subdued and less histrionic? I wonder if 1) I'm just imagining it, and 2) if not, how much of this is due to Sweden being a much smaller country than France or Italy, and how much of it is due to an underlying sense of unease as having to portray the Swedes of all people as neo-nazis.
[1] To be fair, the Sweden Democrats do have a sketchy history, and a disproportionate number of their MPs do seem to get in unsavory controversies. Not my first choice... except they also seem to be the loudest at addressing the unfettered immigration fiasco [2]
[2] OK fine one small clarification rant. I like immigration. I do! I unironically think multicultural restaurants make an area nicer, and I unironically like meeting people of different backgrounds. But there have to be major caveats here. For one, they have to actually respect me and my society, and our values and how we live our lives. For another, it really helps if they either have valuable skills, or are otherwise productive in some other way. And I sure as fuck do not want violent criminals living anywhere near me.
Sweden isn't trying to import biophysicists or electrical engineers. They're letting in disproportionately young men from countries with poor traditions of women's rights, democracy, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech. Are all of them going to share the views of their motherlands? No. But how is it nonetheless not clear that this would be a fiasco?
It very well may be, and it's likely because anti-immigration politicians are old news in today's Europe.
Over in America, Donald Trump won an election in large part just for being the one guy willing to take a stance against immigration. This was then touted as a RADICAL change that was UNPRECEDENTED and surely a HUGE upheaval. On spaces like this one and the defunct SSC comments, people were sure that anti-immigration sentiment in Europe was a clear effect of this, and..
.. No?
We've had anti-immigrant parties for decades now, as opposed to it being a thing in 2016. Sometimes they do well, sometimes they do not, sometimes they even get elected into governments. This has gone on for such a long time and with such regularity that it's become a little boring: it's really hard for something to keep its edge for such a long timeframe. There are people who disagree with the anti-immigration guys for various reasons, certainly, but the hysterics and doomsday rhetoric just isn't there anymore. It didn't work, the novelty wore off, and anti-immigration parties have become such a permanent fixture that even the negative coverage is more level-headed than it is apocalyptic.
I don't disagree, but I remember for example the most recent Macron vs Le Pen election as being covered a lot more apocalyptically.
Maybe my memory is just wrong though
Outside France, I think most of the "apocalyptic" views were more about her being pro-Putin and anti-EU. The immigration is only salient to both extreme pro-immigration and anti-immigration crowd, who make it a central thing about their platform / identity.
More options
Context Copy link
France is an actually important country (2nd tier at least) with a hyper presidential system. It is more or less the only country left in continental Europe that believes in some sort of national destiny, which gives its rulers the power to do great or terrible things if they choose to. In contrast, almost every other politician in Europe is not much more than middle managers intent on keeping their order and bereft of any actual ambition. Who cares if Swedish diluted Neo-nazis get 3% more votes every election after all? Honestly what can they do?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link