This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I read something today which I have long thought deep down, but hadn’t really seen spelled out elsewhere.
Namely, the censoring done by the liberal left, while there, is rather mild in the scheme of things and is probably much less than the same left would be censored by the people it currently censors if that group was in power.
The quote that brought it to my mind was from here, on Richard Hannania’s substack. After a post discussing being banned by Twitter, he drops this at the end of the article.
https://richardhanania.substack.com/p/saying-goodbye-to-twitter
The attitude of censoring opponents seemed to have crystallized for the left around 2016, where I distinctly remember the conversation centering around the limits of tolerating intolerant ideologies. (Which seems to have become fully settled by now, interesting to observe an ideological movement update in real time in that way).
Does Hannania have a point here? Is the issue that the right takes offense with censorship itself, or would the right if it actually gained back power censor in a much more strict and comprehensive way?
My personal rebuttal to this is always something like ' yes - it is very bad that my grandparents went through the Holocaust in Poland, it is bad that my parents lived through communism in Poland, but it still sucks for me personally that I have to pretend a man is somehow a woman, or that I have to pretend everyone in the US is my equal, or that ... ' so yuh, its relatively mild - but it's still living in unreality, and it's still bothersome.
Tipper Gore is the reason my CD's had parental advisory stickers and the left is the reason tweets and podcasts and truthteller marks are all over everywhere telling us wrong facts.
Which is why the whole bit about how the left only embraced censorship in 2016 in response to Trump is so absurd.
As noted above, Tipper Gore was hardly a member of the "Left." As for her husband, per his Wikipedia page:
I don't think this invalidates my point so much as demonstrates just how far Democrats conception of "moderate" has moved in 30 years.
As many have pointed out, Donald Trump's policies and rhetoric where basically those of a 90s centrist. That he appears "Far Right" in contrast to most journalists and politicians today is more a comment on them than it is him.
Elon gets it.
No, none of those were remotely left positions, even 30-40 yrs ago. The left has been pro-gun control for decades, and there was a pro-gay rights plank in the 1980 Democratic platform
If Bill Clinton and Al Gore are right wing in your book, consider for a moment that your model of the political spectrum is woefully miscalibrated.
Dude, I didn't say they were rightwing. I said they were not part of the left. Geez, both were heads of the Democratic Leadership Council
, which was explicitly formed to move the party away from the left. A guy who opposed gun control and gay rights in the 80s simply wasn't on the left, just because he has a D next to his name. It is pretty common knowledge, after all, that the parties were far more ideologically heterogeneous in the past
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link