site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 12, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

40
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Finally something that explicitly ties AI into the culture war: Why I HATE A.I. Art - by Vaush

This AI art thing. Some people love it, some people hate it. I hate it.

I endorse pretty much all of the points he makes in this video. I do recommend watching the whole thing all the way through, if you have time.

I went into this curious to see exactly what types of arguments he would make, as I've been interested in the relationship between AI progress and the left/right divide. His arguments fall into roughly two groups.

First is the "material impact" arguments - that this will be bad for artists, that you're using their copyrighted work without their permission, that it's not fair to have a machine steal someone's personal style that they worked for years to develop, etc. I certainly feel the force of these arguments, but it's also easy for AI advocates to dismiss them with a simple "cry about it". Jobs getting displaced by technology is nothing new. We can't expect society to defend artists' jobs forever, if they are indeed capable of being easily automated. Critics of AI art need to provide more substantial arguments about why AI art is bad in itself, rather than simply pointing out that it's bad for artists' incomes. Which Vaush does make an attempt at.

The second group of arguments could perhaps be called "deontological arguments" as they go beyond the first-person experiential states of producers and consumers of AI art, and the direct material harm or benefit caused by AI. The main concern here is that we're headed for a future where all media and all human interaction is generated by AI simulations, which would be a hellish dystopia. We don't want things to just feel good - we want to know that there's another conscious entity on the other end of the line.

It's interesting to me how strongly attuned Vaush is to the "spiritual" dimension of this issue, which I would not have expected from an avowed leftist. It's clearly something that bothers him on an emotional level. He goes so far as to say:

If you don't see stuff like this [AI art] as a problem, I think you're a psychopath.

and, what was the real money shot for me:

It's deeply alienating, and if you disagree, you cannot call yourself a Marxist. I'm drawing a line.

Now, on the one hand, "leftism" and "Marxism" are absolutely massive intellectual traditions with a lot of nuance and disagreement, and I certainly don't expect all leftists to hold the same views on everything. On the other hand, I really do think that what we're seeing now with AI content generation is a natural consequence of the leftist impulse, which has always been focused on the ceaseless improvement and elevation of man in his ascent towards godhood. What do you think "fully automated luxury gay space communism" is supposed to mean? It really does mean fully automated. If everyone is to be a god unto themselves, untrammeled by external constraints, then that also means they have the right to shirk human relationships and form relationships with their AI buddies instead (and also flood the universe with petabytes of AI-generated art). At some point, there seems to be a tension between progress on the one hand and traditional authenticity on the other.

It was especially amusing when he said:

This must be how conservatives feel when they talk about "bugmen".

I guess everyone becomes a reactionary at some point - the only thing that differs is how far you have to push them.

counter-trans ideology

I have noticed the analogy, which is part of why I’m slightly surprised that this forum is so pro-AI. I mean, given the LessWrong origins of this forum, it makes sense they’d be pro-AI. But this is a decidedly reactionary slice of that original LW readership. How can the same group of people be so reactionary on so many issues while also supporting the prospect of AI-induced complete social disruption. Yes yes, it doesn’t have to be the same individuals making both types of posts, but still.

I have noticed the analogy, which is part of why I’m slightly surprised that this forum is so pro-AI.

The analogy doesn't quite fit for where the rubber meets the road, does it? When it comes to deeming something created by Midjourney "real art," what does that actually involve for the individuals involved? Nothing, really; a particular arrangement of pixels being "real art" or not is mainly a metaphysical question that doesn't interact with our physical reality to much of an extent. At the end of the day, the arrangement of pixels is the arrangement of pixels, and people will continue to use that arrangement of pixels for things that arrangement of pixels are good at doing, regardless of whether we consider it "real art" or not.

When it comes to deeming a transwoman a "real woman," what does that actually involve for the individuals involved? It means, among other things, having some sort of enforcement regime by which people talking about the transwoman are limited in the terms they can use. It's not just a metaphysical question that people can make an invisible mental categorization as they wish and go about their day; it's a physical question with physical consequences that differ greatly depending on the categorization.

At the end of the day, the arrangement of pixels is the arrangement of pixels, and people will continue to use that arrangement of pixels for things that arrangement of pixels are good at doing, regardless of whether we consider it "real art" or not.

Yes: "is this image art, or is it merely beautiful?" All I can say is that's a nice problem to have.

Art historically has a long tradition of pushing the boundaries of what can be considered "art". Duchamp's Fountain is probably the most notable example here.

Of course technology enabling new types of art is also a new trend: at times we've had crises about whether recorded music would displace musicians, or synthesizers would displace specific instrumentalists, or photography painters. In most cases the answer is "somewhat", and I expect AI art will probably be disruptive, but at the same time the authenticity of a human creator will probably remain the pinnacle of status in most cases.