Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?
This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.
Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.
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Notes -
In that conversation, you were saying that if some body of myth won out in the public consciousness, it must have had the most merit. You were making the "might makes right" argument, as in "those narratives won, so they must have been the best." That is not my criteria for whether a narrative has merit:
Notice you concede the argument "everyone has an identity and ulterior motives." Yes, they do. So why not try to understand them when it comes to something like Captain America or Superman? You are saying the ulterior motives don't matter, all that matter is that they won in the marketplace of ideas. But why did they win? Because they created effective propaganda that was memetically powerful, not because they were "right." What is right does not always win in the court of public opinion, which anyone here should admit.
I also put science in there. So are you saying that science produced by jews 'won'(ie, worked) because it was effective propaganda that was memetically powerful, and not because it was right?
And again, I do not believe that might makes right, or that what is right always wins in the court of public opinion, but it is correlated with it (that's why you cited american public opinion in 1939 to defend your isolationist views).
I am about as far from SS in views as it is possible to be, and do not wish to support their argument, but you are so obviously wrong I cannot restrain myself.
Drop the Jewish part, I have zero interest in that.
We know for a certainty that "science" that is not in any way factual or true can "win", in the sense of being adopted as scientific fact society-wide, purely because of effective propaganda and memetic power, while being absolutely false in its factual claims. Fucking Freudianism did exactly that! Lysenkoism was forced at gunpoint, but Freud's bullshit rewrote vast chunks of our society, based on fucking nothing beyond a story people were primed to believe. His disciples continued the scam, and their disciples continued the scam, and it's still fucking going!
I would dispute that, obviously, given the battle lines in this discussion. So you refuse to proclaim that HBD is true out of fear it might help people like him, but have no compunction agreeing with him on the cornerstone of his epistemology. Looks like you have 'axioms' in common. And even though you can "choose to believe" less distateful things, your opinon, like his, will remain a lifeless copy of the real thing (an opinion guided there by the truth and subject to updates).
He had and has his detractors. But more importantly, why does an error invalidate the whole system? It is absurd to deny the signal because it wasn't strong enough that one time. Last time, you tried to put a barrier in your epistemology between ideology-like and gravity-like knowledge, but postmodernism burned through it as I expected, and now you're questioning gravity.
Strong «I smoke to spite Hitler» energy.
Alternatively, @FCfromSSC just disagrees with him on race and probably other more weighty object-level matters (disagrees with me too), but most everyone accepts that social reality is socially constructed, in precisely the sense that it can systematically deviate from implications of honest scientific investigation, both on the level of a domain-specific narrative and on the meta-level of occasionally prioritizing narratives over evidence and narratively compelling beliefs over epistemically sound ones.
There's no smoking gun here, buddy: it's your epistemology that is the conspicuously deviant sort.
And it's not even consistent, I've pointed out a number of trivial holes and you just angrily shout to not notice them.
Because there is no principled way to delineate «the whole system». History is not a laboratory, everything is a one-off, nothing is truly replicable. Early 20th century psychology had happened exactly once, and got dominated by Freudian bullshit. At the same time, Communism with its blatant lies had dominated much of Eurasia, and in Germany this was countered by you-know-who. If anything, this shows us that grand narratives patently work. And this is indeed fucking strong evidence to ask whether you might also be living in the middle of one such grand narrative – or more. No matter how much it vexes you to adopt the «postmodernist» mindset.
«Postmodernists» actually make a strong, evidence-based point – because modernism fucking sucked for their generation.
Questioning gravity is good. That's how we can study anything nontrivial at all. It's just there are no sound reasons to conclude that gravity doesn't exist (whatever that means), so this questioning, normally, ends with (perhaps qualified) affirmation. This is not in any way a guarantee for any topic.
I wouldn't hide the truth or choose arguments by associates anyway, so the FC 'directed ideological cleaning' process is a mystery to me. Who knows what you guys smoke.
Original motte and bailey. Motte is ‘reality is partly socially mediated’.
Okay I disagree, it's just a weaker signal of the exact same process as science in a laboratory. It is by categorizing and linking distinct events that we can understand the world.
So according to you, if you quote history, it's just meaningless. No conclusions are allowed if a hostile head of state repeatedly violates the terms of the appeasement he gets, while another doesn’t? All completely independent events, no predictive value?
I see postmodernism does exist as a distinct concept when you want it to. Please just fucking tell me what term I am allowed to use for the sweeping epistemological changes you demand.
I’m ready to compare the achievements of modernism against postmodernism anytime you want.
It's a mystery because you don't want to look at it. You're observably doing it in this very conversation.
The motte is "reality is partly socially mediated, and that "partly" can vary considerably at different times and places, even if unmediatable reality can never be shut out permanently." The bailey is "reality is entirely socially mediated, we can think whatever we like and make it stick indefinately."
We're in the Motte.
Categorization and linkage (and observation for that matter) are fraught processes. Not fraught to the point that some knowledge can't exist, but more than fraught enough that knowledge can't be solved like tic-tac-toe.
No, it's evidence. We use axioms to collate and interpret evidence, and evidence in turn narrows the range of plausible axioms, and sometimes outright discredits some of them, but it's a two-way street, and subjective choices are involved when you travel in either direction. That's how reason works, and it's one of the reasons why reason is intractably imperfect, and why skepticism and critical thinking is so very necessary. Epistemic certainty is a feeling, not a fact. You can feel entirely certain and be dead wrong.
Disagreeing with you about whether something is "postmodern" is not an argument that Postmodernism does not exist as a distinct concept; in fact, it is the exact opposite.
You can call me Susan if it makes you feel better. You can even keep calling me a Postmodernist; I think you're wrong, but I'm far less interested in arguing about whether I'm a postmodernist or not than in arguing about how reason works, because I think we share enough common ground that you can be persuaded to see the truth of the matter.
OK you’re answering each other’s replies, this thread has a bad case of mitosis. I’m not complaining at all, but I’m not going to be able to keep generating replies of the superlative caliber you’re now used to, plus it’s getting a bit repetitive and line-by-line-y.
But I want to thank everyone for answering my question, and you two in particular for humouring me at length, it’s been fun and informative.
I don’t think ideological questions are ‘obvious’ or can be solved like tic-tac-toe, but I’ll let it go without accusing you of rounding my arguments to absurdities . The way I see it, this sort of ‘strawmanning’ is often an honest attempt at gauging the other guy’s position.
Seems to me he was saying it was fraught to the point knowledge can’t exist, and you implied earlier it tailed off to nothing, but okay, I’ll agree to the above. Still a massive gap between these two extremes.
I’ll leave your ‘unorthodox’ use of the word ‘axiom’ to another comment, when I get to it.
Okay because I need to call you something. I think the thread shows there is some real divergence in our epistemologies.
(Observe the apparent tractability of the question fading!)
...But seriously, this is inevitable. I'm doubtful this thread of discussion itself will actually sort the question either; like the previous discussions we've had, this one will probably taper off inconclusively, because one or both of us will get frustrated or distrated and we'll move on. But over several such, understanding grows, hopefully.
A fair point.
I eagerly await it. Have a good one, sir.
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