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PaperclipPerfector  9mo ago (text post)   2912 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for July 9, 2023

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

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Has there ever been research on how ordinary cis people would react to being persistently, deliberately misgendered? I don't think most of them would care once the initial shock wears off (which means all human beings are functionally non-binary), but I have no data backing this.

If by misgendered you mean referred to by a different pronoun with all else remaining equal then I think people could get over it, but if you mean actually treated as the opposite gender all the time then you end up with horror stories like David Reimer's. Most people who think of themselves as not having a strong gender identity are like white people in the US who don't think of themselves as having a strong racial identity. Take them out of their present circumstances by either treating them as the opposite gender or sending them to live in Africa, respectively, and they will discover very quickly that their gender or race are real and important to them.

I did mean the former, yes. I know that being forced to wear a dress and act feminine is not something most men would like. But I was just thinking about how upset trans and enby people are when misgendered. If someone isn't dysphoric (and almost no non-binary people are dysphoric), then the attitude towards misgendering should be no different from that of a cis person.

I mean, the trans people I know don't get upset when they are misgendered in contexts like someone who knew them pre-transition slipping up for a second, or a native speaker of a language without gendered pronouns like Mandarin or Persian getting confused.

The internet caricature of a trans activist who flies off the handle at the slightest infraction of pronoun etiquette is not something I've ever come across in the real world, even in extremely liberal areas and college campuses, and neither is the sort of person who would misgender them in an antagonistic manner to trigger such a reaction.

At most the people who have disagreements with modern gender politics, including me, just avoid pronouns altogether in situations where it makes us uncomfortable.

Right, but if someone deliberately misgendered a trans person repeatedly out of a refusal the person's chosen gender, that would bother them. What I'm wondering is, would that bother cis people? If not, then the fact that it bothers trans people is an aberration. I'd like if there was data on how cis people react.

Does this happen to cis people?

That seems like it would be very weird, and would indicate something was off; usually as a way of bullying the person and mocking them. In which case, surely they would be bothered. But people are generally very accurate about guessing gender outside of a few edge cases.

I can think of a couple of very brief interactions in bad viewing conditions where someone was misgendered, and both parties were embarrassed. This hasn't happened to me even once, as an average looking woman.

It's also hard to innocently misgender a person to their face, so I think these were entirely a misapplication of sir/ma'am.

Does this happen to cis people?

It does when they're young. Never bothered me in the slightest.

In which case, surely they would be bothered.

Not necessarily. A lot of attempts at bullying are kind of pathetic, and are easy to laugh off.

It's also hard to innocently misgender a person to their face

So assume it's not innocent. Or better yet, don't assume, from now on please refer to me as ma'am, and see if I'm bothered.

It does when they're young. Never bothered me in the slightest.

Good for you.

Traditionally, misgendering - calling man a woman or girl - was considered very seriously and treated as mortal insult.

Concern about proper gender etiquette is not something invented by LGBTQ+ activists.

Traditionally, misgendering - calling man a woman or girl - was considered very seriously and treated as mortal insult.

Yeah, but for someone who holds some variant of the belief in the equality of sexes it makes no sense to take it as an insult.

The internet caricature of a trans activist who flies off the handle at the slightest infraction of pronoun etiquette is not something I've ever come across in the real world, even in extremely liberal areas and college campuses, and neither is the sort of person who would misgender them in an antagonistic manner to trigger such a reaction.

My experience with trans people (or other gender-non-conforming people) IRL is similar to yours, where pronouns aren't policed with the obsession of a hall monitor, and silly mistakes are considered silly mistakes. But one would get a very different impression of trans people based on talking to trans activists online. It's a good reminder that there is no reason to believe that self-proclaimed trans activists have any claim on speaking on behalf of trans people in general, and as such can be ignored when it comes to bettering lives for trans people (though one perhaps ought to not ignore them when it comes to preventing the worsening of one's own life); trans people IRL are different - often distinct - sets of people from the activists. It's really unfortunate that trans laypeople get tarred with the same brush as the activists, thanks in large part due to the activists intentionally trying to conflate the groups.

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