This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Pat Fitzgerald the coach of Northwestern was fired for hazing. He’s been there close to 30 years in total as a player then assistant coach and for 17 years HC of NW. A former player reported hazing at NW. Also supposedly said he exagerated and wanted to get him fired. Initially he was suspended without pay for 2 weeks then more articles were posted in the NW student paper. He has like a 10 year 50 million contract he is in year 2 of. NW says they aren’t paying so lawyers will figure stuff out.
He claims he didn’t know about the hazing. I’m going to say that is bs and as a former player he’s been the victim and perpetrator.
This is the money quote on the worst thing that happened:
“The former player said he reported his experiences to the University in late November 2022. He alleges that much of the team’s hazing centered around a practice dubbed “running,” which was used to punish team members, primarily freshman, for mistakes made on the field and in practice.
If a player was selected for “running,” the player who spoke to The Daily said, they would be restrained by a group of 8-10 upperclassmen dressed in various “Purge-like” masks, who would then begin “dry-humping” the victim in a dark locker room. “
Main article with some more details in NW student paper (bottom links to more related articles).
https://dailynorthwestern.com/2023/07/08/top-stories/former-nu-football-player-details-hazing-allegations-after-coach-suspension/
Ok so 18-22 year old behavior that is now very societal inappropriate especially for a solidly best of the not elite schools.
I’ll front that I had a couple years where I was bullied. That can look the same as young male team building doing stupid stuff but there is a difference between hurting someone and just some male behavior and I don’t know the line. I do know good would look the same as bad when written about in modern media.
I’m going to compare this to a few other things.
I went to Notre Dame we had this dorm who everyone called gay (I’m old enough where you could say that). They were zahm. They were known for having a naked run thru campus and supposedly did some other gay stuff like that. But every zahm guy I ever met were really close with their people. (That dorm was canceled since I graduated)
I think Stanford use to have a lot of naked runs before it got not fun.
Miami Hurricanes football team had a “7th floor crew” some nfl players in it and sounds like it’s about stealing girls and running trains on girls as a team. And really not that long ago. Decent rap video. Some how still up on YouTube. This is more about the standards that get you fired now versus then or at good football school versus smart kid bad football school.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=9ujKxpAvLKg
UGA has a really bad street racing problem that led to two dead (there’s a fixer and a lot more complaints not just one incident that ended bad).
Many of you probably have other examples of this, my guess is this wasn’t hardcore hurt the person hazing. This feels like it fits in the young men do some silly stuff society doesn’t let them do anymore. And not in the Joe Paterno DC was raping little kids area.
I feel like you have a few different kinds of bullying/hazing. You have the kind where everyone picks on the weakest member and we should get rid of that. Some reason I think of Jordan and assume he was crazy and bullied everyone and it sort of got guys to perform better and that’s ok. And then you have some weird young male traditions which I think on net are good. But tough to tell the difference.
Should we?
As a form of enforcement of a culture's values is a target approach relative to the person's individual failure to meet it not efficient. I know experiencing the opposite where everyone in a group is punished for the actions of one person is brutal.
The direct feedback on your actions this elements of 'hazing' provide both the course correction for the individual and assuming it's free association a group selection effect that maintains the groups identity.
I was in a fraternity, but lived in the dorms as a freshmen during the hazing period. While my experience hazing was comparable to many who were live in freshmen pledges the fact that they could not reasonably say know I felt their experience to just be far more grotesque than mine.
So in areas where free associating is low such as compulsory K-12 school it probably should be regulated.
That being said 'homophobia' & machismo is rampant enough in this male groups that I'm highly doubtful that this is close to the real story.
I'm guessing this either an extremely rare occurrence or just a flat out fabrication.
Also, what exercise bands have the force to "slingshotting" D1 athletes?
This sport allows transfers, they aren't under contract. Are none of these outbound transfers incentivizes by modern culture to speak out in some way? I think three ex players have complained about micro-aggressions type racism, but that's it.
I'd bet there was hazing but a large amount of hyperbole.
I think "don't shit on the weak for fun and self-aggrandizement" is a cultural value of the Western civilization, so people violating it should be counter-bullied by Society.
But that's not the only thing happening. There are the people making mistakes on the team. A culture of minimizing mistakes is being enforced. A bar is being raised so to speak.
I don't doubt there is also a sphere of ill-intended harassments being laundered into the system or that a machiavellian type isn't attracted to doing the enforcement, but there is an enforcement happening that provides value.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link