site banner
PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   31448 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 10, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Top Bottom New Old Controversial
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I don’t have an opinion on that, because I try not to make generalizations based on n=2. And, given that Scientology is a religion, whereas QAnon is a political organization, I would certainly want to control for that. I would also want to control for the fact that QAnon has very much been in the news of late, whereas Scientology has not.

  • -21

They made a good point. Acknowledge it and carry on.

This kind of pseudointellectualizing diminishes your argument.

No, they didn't. Their "point" is infantile. "Why did they mention this guy's political views but not this other guy's religious views" is a terrible argument, because they are different categories. People generally do not condemn the religious views of others; the political views of others is much more fair game. Hence, it is hardly surprising that reviews did not mention Cruise's religious views.* It is no less inane than people claiming racial bias when police crack down on gang violence but not Wall Street fraud.

I would prefer that a filmmaker's views not be mentioned at all, but OP's "argument" is pathetic..

*Assuming that they didn't. But it seems that Rolling Stone -- the very magazine that OP complained of, published this article yesterday.

  • -10

“Scientology is a religion” is a very feeble deflection, considering that’s very much up for debate, and in fact several governments have refused to consider it a religion, classifying it variously as a scam, a cult and even an organized criminal enterprise. QAnon being in the news of late is very much a function of who makes the news, and this is largely the same cohort that writes movie reviews for major publications. It was quite recently that Danny Masterson was convicted of rape, and his victims went on record accusing the Church of Scientology of harassment and intimidation on his behalf.

QAnon being in the news of late is very much a function of who makes the news, and this is largely the same cohort that writes movie reviews for major publications

That's the point. QAnon is the flavor of the month, so a filmmaker's association with QAnon is more likely to be mentioned. Scientology is yesterday's news, the legal travails of a has-been actor notwithstanding, so a filmmaker's association with Scientology is less likely to be mentioned. This is not a new phenomenon.

in fact several governments have refused to consider it a religion, classifying it variously as a scam, a cult and even an organized criminal enterprise

  1. Not in the United States.
  2. Regardless of whether it is a cult, it is not a political organization. So, the whataboutism still doesn't work.
  • -13

I don’t think most people think of Scientology as a religion, more as a hybrid cult and a scam.

But you repeat yourself, waaaaHEY!

I feel the spirit of the fedora returning from the 00's!

(But for real, I do feel the spirt coming back. I would bet a small amount that religion is going to renter the culture ware space as a real target in the next couple years.)

(But for real, I do feel the spirt coming back. I would bet a small amount that religion is going to renter the culture ware space as a real target in the next couple years.)

As a veteran Internet Atheist, I sure hope you're wrong. In retrospect the whole enterprise was somewhat undignified in it's heyday, at this point it would be downright perverse.

Then there's the small inconvenient fact that atheists have been proven absolutely wrong about the impact of religion on society, and about what secularization would bring about.

Then there's the small inconvenient fact that atheists have been proven absolutely wrong about the impact of religion on society, and about what secularization would bring about.

EDIT: I'd argue they were wrong about what religion did, but the people arguing in favor of religion are also wrong about what religion does. It might have done that in the past, and it might still do it if you are a goat herd in the Hindukush or a dirt farmer in the Indus valley, but not so for a western capitalist. I forgot to include this though so you get it as a weird edit instead lol.

Yes, but nowadays we've moved further along the Nietzschean path and there are new angles to attack religion from kinda percolating out there in gen z and gen alpha; mainly that people who claim to believe it don't actually believe it, because they don't act like they believe it.

Think about all these Johnny come lately statue profile pic dudes shopping which trad version of religion to choose; and realize that is how young people are going to experience popular religion; jut like we experienced religion like a kubrik film of incredibly venal mega churches and 9/11 and such.

We are in the Reaction phase right now; soon we will be in the counter-reaction phase.

but not so for a western capitalist

Huh? They're admittedly thinned out, but there still are religious communities in the west, and you can actually observe they're getting something out of it.

mainly that people who claim to believe it don't actually believe it, because they don't act like they believe it.

So? This applies to anyone as far as I can tell, even nihilists.

We are in the Reaction phase right now; soon we will be in the counter-reaction phase.

This is what I meant when I said it's going from undignified to perverse. As misguided as it was, I can understand "counter-reacting" to Alabama hicks teaching creationism in public schools because you think it will bring about a new age of peace, science, and freedom from dogma, but "counter-reacting" to dudes on Twitter trying to LARP themselves into finding some meaning in their life because something, something, muh Nietscheanism feels like a parody of itself.

You place too much importance on causes and not enough on people being cringe.

The reaction to new atheism had nothing to do with it's program; and everything to do with the spirit of the fedora.

Ah, Superman has kryptonite, and the Übermensch has cringe.

The little death that lives inside your monkey brain~~~

I for one see no principled distinction to be made between a religion and a cult. The former all arise from the latter, and they accrue a veneer of respectability from being old, or formed at a time where accusing something of being bad because it was a fresh cult would be met with mild confusion.

They're all scams anyway, even if some of the religious fall for it too. That's how MLMs work.

I don’t have an opinion on that, because I try not to make generalizations based on n=2

This is so silly. You can't take scientific language and apply it in any way you'd like. If your parents lavish your brother with attention, encourage him, give him 2 free ferraris when he turns 12, and so on, while locking you in the attic, n(umber of brothers)=2 so you shouldn't generalize about their behavior.

No, n != 2. Yes there are 2 movies involved but there are innumerable critics making the same decisions about those two movies. You don't just get to find a hypothesis, pick a certain aspect about that hypothesis which involves a small number of entities, and decide that since that number of entities is small the hypothesis must be discarded without further evidence. Perhaps there are only 2 brothers, but there's a long chain of consistent behavior to observe and use to inform your conclusions about your parents. Perhaps there are 2 sexes, but there are billions of instances of each sex to observe. Perhaps there are 2 movies, but there are hundreds of critics to observe. n(umber of relevant entities) != 2.

As far as Scientology vs. Qanon, you mentioned wanting to control for one being a political organization. Yes, that's exactly the point. People care about one as a political organization and not the other as a religious organization. You're controlling for the very point which @CriticalDuty made. "Oh well obviously one actor has politics they disagree with, so we should definitely control for that before determining whether critics care about actors' political opinions."

Perhaps there are 2 movies, but there are hundreds of critics to observe. n(umber of relevant entities) != 2. Yes, but I don't have that evidence. At best, I have the claim of some guy on the internet re what the evidence shows.

Oh well obviously one actor has politics they disagree with, so we should definitely control for that before determining whether critics care about actors' political opinions."

But, again, the example you raised -- Tom Cruise -- is about religious belief, not political beliefs. So, you seem to be saying that that example is not germane.Which I agree is the case.

  • -13

The point is that the critics' complaints are explicitly political, rather than actual criticisms of people with crazy beliefs. Tom Cruise is a great example of someone with crazier beliefs who has not received the same criticism, proving that the critics' motivations are partisan, not principled.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats