site banner
PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   31412 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 24, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Bottom New Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I know this isn't helpful, but my flinch reaction to dudes who have masculinity problems is to scoff and feel contempt.

Like, what's so fucking hard about it? And then I remember normal mind bias and tell myself that what I just said is "Listen, picking up heavy stuff is easy! Just lift more than you can lift!"

I will say that building your masculinity on the attention of a particular woman or women in general is cuck behavior, and needs to be discouraged wherever possible. Even the MGTOW dudes still construct their whole identity around women, you gotta stop that shit.

But that runs into "Just stop feeling that way! Lift more than you can lift!" again.

Even the MGTOW dudes still construct their whole identity around women, you gotta stop that shit.

How do you mean that?

Negative attention is still attention, negative affection is still affection. True MGTOW behavior is a Isaac Newton style absolute 0 on the number line, not a -10. If you feel the need to label yourself MGTOW, if you put any serious amount of thought or energy into it, you are making an own goal at the first pass.

It's that meditation problem of Not thinking about Not thinking.

I will say that building your masculinity on the attention of a particular woman or women in general is cuck behavior, and needs to be discouraged wherever possible. Even the MGTOW dudes still construct their whole identity around women, you gotta stop that shit.

All evolutionary pressures ensure that men absolutely should care about what women want. The men who don't... will just not reproduce and die off.

But appearing to care, or caring in the wrong ways (e.g. being subservient to women) are both unattractive to women and unfashionable to other men. The secret is to care enough to entice women, while pretending not to care.

The men who don't... will just not reproduce and die off.

I'm not so sure. You have to desire women, sure, but care about what they want? Only a bit.

My experience is that being (relative) high value and signaling interest is much more effective than 'caring' about what someone wants. The same goes for friendships. People want to be desired by high value people, they don't want servants. They want a at least an equal exchange in status, but most likely an increase (or the perception of an increase).

Once you're in a relationship things obviously change a bit.

My experience is that being (relative) high value

Being "high value" is "caring what women want". A lot of the advice places like TRP dispense are things like "pump iron" and "buy clothes that fit", which are things women care about since modern dating is very dependent on physical attractiveness. But then, TRP will say goofy things like "but don't do it for women, do it for yourself".

What you describe are also actionable ways for someone to improve themselves.

No, being high value is being high value. You're high value to yourself, to other men and to women. Why? Because you provide value and this is broadly useful.

The point is to avoid focusing on what women want because that distorts and ruins your ability to evaluate things. If you focus on improving you'll be better off regardless of whether women like you better or not. Impressing women isn't the only reason to do things, it's one reason among many. People are looking for shortcuts to get ahead in life but that usually doesn't work very well, whether that is for impressing women, making friends or getting ahead in your career.

I'm married with kids but it's still as useful to me to be seen as high value by society around me as it was when I was 18 and single, because both the perception of high value and actual high value is useful.

No, being high value is being high value. You're high value to yourself, to other men and to women. Why? Because you provide value and this is broadly useful.

What? This is just circular reasoning.

The point is to avoid focusing on what women want because that distorts and ruins your ability to evaluate things.

No it doesn't. If a guy wants to focus on attracting women, follows online advice of lifting weights and improving appearance, and thereby starts attracting more women, then that's mission accomplished. It doesn't need to be cloaked in some superstitious silliness of "it only works if you think you're doing for yourself instead of specifically your ability to attract women, bro".

Again, men's perception of "value" is utterly warped around what women want for obvious evolutionary reasons. Stuff like physical fitness, having lots of money, being outgoing and confident, etc. are all stuff women value, and so men value it in themselves and others. There's a reason it's very difficult to think of a male role-model who wouldn't be successful with women.

How about all the scientists and philosophers throughout history who achieved incredible things that did not in any way correlate to success with women? The path of the scholar or monk is a totally legitimate historical archetype for men to aspire toward, but such men have not historically been sexually successful.

I'll admit that scientists are probably the best counterexample, although I don't think it's a killshot. Scientists are well-respected, and while it's not the path to becoming a billionaire, they're also well paid. "Scientist" can sometimes evoke notions of a weird introvert in a lab with thick glasses, but that's not the type of person who's a role model. Instead, people model themselves on someone like Oppenheimer who was a very respected leader in the field and who had multiple lovers.

Monks are just flatly not popular male role models, outside of maybe their stoicism which is just a conventionally appreciated male trait.

Again, men's perception of "value" is utterly warped around what women want for obvious evolutionary reasons. Stuff like physical fitness, having lots of money, being outgoing and confident, etc. are all stuff women value, and so men value it in themselves and others.

Is this a joke?

More effort than this, please.

Not in the slightest.

Like, what's so fucking hard about it?

What's so fucking hard about finding meaning in a world where meaning seems pointless and nothing matters? Do you even hear yourself?

Frankly in this post you're a caricature. You're discussing masculinity as if it's something self-evident, related to lifting heavier and heavier iron bars. (of all things...)

Do you really think a standard dude who lifts heavy today is better than a Roman emperor like Marcus Aurelius? If you truly see masculinity as reducible to how many pounds you can lift, I feel sorry for you.

I think you kinda missed the entire point of the post, and the metaphor.

I will explain it less off the cuff: Performing masculinity is easy for me, I've never had any angst over it. Thus, I feel contempt for men for whom it is not easy. Then, I remember normal mind bias and realize that my feelings are as justified as me feeling contempt for a dude with palsy not being able to lift what I can lift, and that it is unfair.

What's so fucking hard about finding meaning in a world where meaning seems pointless and nothing matters? Do you even hear yourself?

There is meaning all around though. This sounds a lot like projection to me.

Frankly in this post you're a caricature. You're discussing masculinity as if it's something self-evident, related to lifting heavier and heavier iron bars. (of all things...)

That is very clearly a metaphor...

Yeah I was a bit drunk when I replied. And projecting, well yeah of course. Aren't we all?

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats