site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 7, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

9
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Naming conventions as class signifiers with implications for discussion of race, wealth, sexuality etc.

I had a form come across my desk today with a really bad name on it. Very stereotypically ghetto black, badly spelled, four middle names (one of which was “Mykween”). The name is too long for the name box on a federal form, so I had to file a supplemental sheet for it. Which got me thinking about why people name their kids stupid and stereotypical names, and what that means for the larger conversation about social divisions.

I live in a majority-minority city, I work with black people, we have lots of black customers etc. etc. There's more than one sort of black person, just as there is more than one sort of every group.

I look around my friend group and co-workers, not a one of them has a name like that. Eric, Dom (Dominic), Reggie (Reginald), Hezzie (Hezekiah), etc. Most of my black friends and co-workers have either very normal “white” names, or old fashioned/religious names. A few have african names, but that's because they're from Africa.

This is because the stereotypically “black” names are more specifically black underclass names. The working class' most serious social problem is distinguishing themselves from the underclass. So they name their kids very differently. And, in turn, if you see a black person with an african (or even better, fake african) name, a political portmanteau or a double-barreled last name, that's a middle- or upper-class thing. Hannah Nicole-Jones, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Edna Kane-Williams etc. We see similar patterns in other races, most Cletuses do not attend Harvard and the hyphenated last name is similarly an aspirational middle and upper class affectation. In addition, naming conventions change over time, so what is signalled by a name in one decade may signal something very different later. The name “Isis” dropped off pretty severely after about 2014.

This all brings to mind Scott's parable of the colored togas.

This is because the stereotypically “black” names are more specifically black underclass names.

"Football names" as the red tribe refers to them, are just generic underclass names which might be used by white trailer trash as often as by black ghetto dwellers. Actual stereotypically black names like Jamal or Latisha seem much more of a working class thing.

I just don’t think this is remotely true. Sure, I think when you refer to “football names” you’re talking about something like Jaxtyn, or Nevaeh, or Shaeleigh, etc. But I find it very hard to imagine working-class (as in, gainfully-employed and expecting their children to be the same) blacks would name a kid LeJarius, or Kwanteeshah, or Quondray, etc. Those just scream “rap sheet starts at 15 years old” to me and, I imagine, every prospective employer in America.

I mean that's kind of why I said Jamal and Latisha(likewise for Tyrone and LaShondra). I'd call LeJarius and Quondray and the like football names.

One set are relatively normal names that have strong ethnic connotations. The other are absolutely made up.

But your contention is that “football names” are used just as often by “white trailer trash” as they are by ghetto blacks. That simply isn’t true, though! The names I gave you are very very characteristically black; I would be shocked to learn that there is a single white person named Quondray in the entire United States. Ghetto black names are usually instantly recognizable as such, which meaningfully separates them from more racially-unspecified “football” (read: underclass) names. If I see “Jaxtyn Daniels” on a résumé, I’m not going to be able to confidently guess the race of the applicant in question. If I see “Rayquon Daniels”, I know immediately what I’m dealing with, and it’s gonna take everything in my power to resist ripping it up without a second thought.

I mean if I see "Jaxtyn Daniels" on a resume I'm not hiring her/him(underclass people can be very, very bad at spelling "Jackson", although this is almost certainly white if it's a male name) regardless of whether he/she is white, black, that one guy who turned himself blue by eating colloidal silver, whatever. It's a pretty red flag for having been underclass. The fact that Rayquon is a lot blacker than Jaxtyn is not actually relevant for my purposes because it's underclass and I don't want to deal with underclass people regardless of color, otherwise I'd open a payday loan place. That's ultimately the signal people care about.

You get a resume from a "Lashondra Brown". The resume is otherwise well-qualified- do you have the same reaction as to "LaQuondray Jefferson"? I certainly don't, although I'd use my best Southern drawl calling Lashondra to set up an interview.

The fact that Rayquon is a lot blacker than Jaxtyn is not actually relevant for my purposes because it's underclass and I don't want to deal with underclass people regardless of color, otherwise I'd open a payday loan place. That's ultimately the signal people care about.

So, this is a point of disagreement between you and me. I’m certainly no fan of the white lumpenproletariat; I know these people personally, I have some in my own family, and I have very little positive to say about them in general. However, I would absolutely have more confidence in a Braeden or a Kinslee than I would in a Rayquon or a Janisha. Not only because black underclass culture is just substantially worse than white underclass culture - especially in terms of whether or not I can expect the employee to reliably show up to work on time and to comprehend at least the basics of the assigned tasks - but also because at the end of the day at least I know that there is no possible way for Braeden to sue my company for discrimination when he eventually fucks up enough for me to fire him. I’ve been through the process of HR fielding a racial discrimination accusation made against the department I work for by a shitty black employee, and I would be loath to repeat it.

You get a resume from a "Lashondra Brown". The resume is otherwise well-qualified- do you have the same reaction as to "LaQuondray Jefferson"?

Lashondra is right on the borderline between “she might be a working-class Black whose parents wanted to give her a fancy-sounding black name” and “nobody in her family can read above a 7th-grade level.” Certainly there are very recognizably black names that don’t give any strong ghetto vibes - I think a lot of the Arabic-derived names can be quite charming - but anything with a “La” followed by a name that doesn’t usually have a “La” in front of it is setting off at least mild underclass alarms.

Ok, would you hire a Jamal Washington?

As for your contention of white/black lumpenproles, I'm not going to be a booster for either demographic, but, uh, there's a reason construction bosses prefer Jose to Bubba, and realistically Devontarius is not a typical name for a plaintiff in a racial discrimination suit, that's a PMC black woman thing.

Real question, why do construction bosses prefer Jose to Bubba? Common non-class-associated Hispanic name vs highly lower-class associated white name?