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PaperclipPerfector  8mo ago (text post)   2465 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for August 13, 2023

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

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I want to resurrect a variant of an old question that has got me wondering again. Is it possible for an atheist to think deeply about life without losing motivation to live well?

It’s trite to phrase it like this, but the atheistic model still seems utterly devoid of motivation or purpose when you dwell on it. Obviously, if you don’t dwell on the facts of life, you can distract yourself with various concerns and pursuits. But what if you don’t distract yourself? Someone with a religious model involving a loving God can ponder his existence forever and be motivated and purpose-filled, provided that they forever presuppose a loving God as an article of faith. But I’m trying to envision an atheist pondering life while still maintaining motivation to live vibrantly and maximally. How do they do it, do they do it, or are they just distracting themselves?

Eg, “an atheist believes they need to make life count” —> count for what? Your life does not count, by your own definition. You will cease to exist, like the dinosaurs, who surely did not count. So why are you programming your own Operating System as a hobby? It doesn’t count! “But it makes me happy” —> drugs will surely make you more happy. Why not do them?

But I’m trying to envision an atheist pondering life while still maintaining motivation to live vibrantly and maximally.

It is completely unclear what you mean by living vibrantly and maximally. If I devote my life to creating art and music for others to enjoy, does that not count? What if I devote my life to reducing suffering in others (human or otherwise, such as people who rescue abused dogs)? What if I spend my life in the pursuit of knowledge? None of those require religious faith.

All of those things require that you believe life has a purpose, or else completely ignore thinking about human life as a whole. A reasonable person does not spend a decade building a house that will be immediately destroyed, draw on a canvas that will be immediately incinerated, or donate a kidney to someone who is immediately going to die. Those endeavors must have a point. Can you explain why an atheist would spend time reducing suffering if none of it matters once all human life has passed away? And if there’s no moral reason to ease another’s suffering, because there is no actual moral judge and in any case no one cares about the moral failings of ancient Assyrians? You can get away with literally everything because you will die and it doesn’t matter.

Can you explain why an atheist would spend time reducing suffering if none of it matters once all human life has passed away?

Well, obviously because it matters now. And, just as obviously, to an atheist, now (ie, this life) is all that matters, because now is all that exists. You need to try to reason from the premises of athiests, not just from your own premises.

A reasonable person does not spend a decade building a house that will be immediately destroyed, draw on a canvas that will be immediately incinerated, or donate a kidney to someone who is immediately going to die.

"Immediately" is doing a lot of unearned work there. And, under that logic, it would seem to be irrational to buy a toy for a child with terminal cancer. Heck, it would be irrational to give him pain medication. If your logic leads to that conclusion, there is probably something amiss.

Edit: Btw, you seem to have changed the subject. You have not explained why an athiest who spends his life rescuing abused animals is not "living vibrantly and maximally."

“Because it matters now” and “because current life matters” begs the question. I can ignore human suffering and focus on my own pleasure, and then I will have more pleasure, and there will be no consequences because we will all die and be forgotten. And I feel no guilt or shame, because I am doing what I want to do.

That is a good question: why do palliative care to a child with cancer? I mean, I can completely ignore that whole cohort of humans, and be content with my own pleasure. Then that cancer patient will be dead and it will be like they never existed. There is no one to judge me, so why bother? And if someone else judges me, again I can ignore them. If they press on, I can lie to obtain their social validation. This is where thinking atheism takes us IMO. Life becomes like a video game, where people make alliances and then break them for fun. And IMO, atheists find this repugnant and so develop their own faith — disorganized and ad hoc, but of the same quality as theists.

Another question is why we would care about creating new human life. We can take all those resources and make our lives as pleasant as possible, and then humans will cease to exist. But we would live like bachelors.

Well, go ahead. You are making theists sound pretty unappealing as people, though, I must say.

Why would I care about how I make theists look? If nice Christians were all it took to convert then everyone in Amish country would be Anabaptist. In any case I am not trying to persuade someone to theism but explore how “thinking atheism” is inherently non-motivating

You're doing some funky stuff with the definition of motivation. Your promised, never-seen pleasure in heaven is Deep and Meaningful because it won't end, while mine quite obviously existing pleasure on Earth is shallow and hedonistic, is that what you're trying to say?

What I am getting at is that the things which we value most in life — betterment of things, morality — do not seem to value in a thinking atheist worldview. If a thinking atheist wakes up every morning to dwell on the nature of life, there is no reason for him to pursue betterment or morality. A theist who believes in a Loving Judge, however, will be motivated toward betterment and morality. In a hedonic philosophy, if feeling good is the only motivator, then we can do things like ignoring guilt to pursue more pleasure. It becomes very easy to lie to others to obtain what we want. In Abrahamic religion, the very foundation of human life is a repudiation of this temptation — man tried hiding from God only to be discovered, naked.

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“Because it matters now” and “because current life matters” begs the question. I can ignore human suffering and focus on my own pleasure, and then I will have more pleasure, and there will be no consequences because we will all die and be forgotten. And I feel no guilt or shame, because I am doing what I want to do.

I am not sure why you are talking about focusing on one's own pleasure. AFAIK, that is not a principle of atheism.

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