This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
People can be convicted of murder even when a body has not been found, sometimes on the basis of circumstantial evidence and the presence of a strong motive, means, and opportunity (and no alibi). The claim of the Holocaust (defined as the deliberate killing of the great majority of the 4+ million predominantly Eastern European Jews who vanished from the Earth between 1939 and 1946) is supported by this logical exercise.
Hitler's loathing for Jewry long predated his rise to power; his government had the ability and opportunity to engage in a genocidal campaign; his government controlled both the territory from which Jews were taken and on which they were killed; the prewar Jewish population of Eastern Europe was well documented; there is no evidence of the Jews who disappeared ever reappearing anywhere else; the number who disappeared was well out of proportion with the equivalent rate in the gentile civilian population of the occupied territories; Stalin had no particular affection for Jews, but the fact that he promoted many to positions of power in the Eastern Bloc after WW2 is incongruent with having immediately prior committed anti-Jewish genocide on his part.
Coupled with the centrality of antisemitism to Nazi ideology, it is highly likely the majority of the Jews who disappeared were deliberately killed by Germany (and its ideological allies in occupied lands) between 1941 and 1945. Therefore, while the precise methods and location of the deaths are valid topics of historical inquiry, it would appear very likely that the Holocaust (as I define it above) did occur.
After WW2? Like Solomon Mikhoels?
Stalin's anti-Semitism aside, "Holocaust didn't happen, Hitler didn't kill millions of Jews, but Stalin did" is a weird position to take. Well, not weird ideologically, "we didn't do it, but you deserved it" is a common stance among midwit supporters of various atrocities, but I am surprised when people try this on the Motte.
Jews were pretty common in the immediate postwar Romanian, Hungarian, Polish and even East German governments over which Stalin presided. Some like Pauker and Slansky (although in the latter case it’s questionable whether it was antisemitism) were purged I suppose, but many weren’t. In any case, the fact that they were allowed in power at all even from 1947-1952 suggests it’s unlikely that Stalin genocided Jews.
More options
Context Copy link
"Stalin killed millions, or at least over a million, Jews" is basically a necessary argument as a part of the great statistical rejigging operation that's required to be even in the ballpark of answering the "Where did the Jews go?" question. It's not a particularly good argument - it presumes a genocide that we basically have zero proof of in the form of witness statements, camps etc. whatever proof we have for the Holocaust - but the argument that Soviets that rapidly assimilated a huge number of Jews that aren't shown in their statistics runs into even more problems once aliayh from Soviet Union/Russia becomes possible and vast amounts of Jews (religous, ethnic, whatever) or people with any connection to Judaism start to migrate to Israel.
We have witness reports of UPA Ukrainians, Keelhauled White Russians and other such groups being shipped to GULag after the war. We don't have anything remotely similar about Jews.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link