This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
A Moon landing, by any other word, would be as beautiful, wouldn't it?
The invitations to the recent G20 summit refered to Droupadi Murmu as "The President of Bharat". While the prime minister of the host country was delivering the inaugural address, the placard in front of him said "Bharat".
No, a new country didn't emerge and somehow got the right to host something as prestigous as a G20 summit, "Bharat" is actually an endonym, explicitly established, in Indian constitution:
This move to use Bharat in internationally visible context can be seen as normalizing and laying the ground work to a full-on name change. The motivation behind is by some commentators impugned to be Hindutva, the ideology of, in the opinion of these commentators, of "othering" non-Hindu groups. The logic being that India being an English word privileges English speaking-Indian, but since they lack an Asabiyyah, this isn't as dangerous affirming the Hindu name, empowring Hindus who do not lack it.
A more concrete explanation also proposed, has been to make the name of an opposition coalition (I.N.D.I.A., yes their name is the just name of the country) seem more foreign and less Bharatian.¹
One is drawn to make comparisons with recent country renaming, the country of Cahit Arf. Both Bharat and Türkiye are at least regional powers, so their renaming is expected to be reported more widely and considered of greater importance than Swaziland or Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia "getting the works". And as in both cases the name change would be the result of the countries free will², the comparison seems even more salient.
Homeland of baklava is a bit further along, already notifying international organizations "Turkey" is a deadname. It seems media organizations haven't followed suit; out of the following only the last two affirm the new name: CNN, WaPo, NYT, NPR, CBC, NHK English, Al Jazeera, BBC, Reuters, USA Today, AP, The Guardian, Fox News, Euronews (the tag for stories pertaining to this country is called "Turkiye (Turkey)"), CGTN³, ABC Australia. But FYROM was abandoned by news media in favour of NM, that the former official name was so long probably played a part. Yet Czechia is still mostly commonly called Czech Republic, despite the latter being longer.
1: Particular political parties appropriating symbols of the whole country, has also happened in Italy. The "Brothers of Italy" a far-righty political party you may have heard about if you follow European politics, is in Italian called "Fratelli d'Italia" after the incipit of the Italian anthem.
2: Unlike with Macedonia, North. In order for Greece to allow the former Vardar Banovina to join EU and NATO, an agreement had to signed by NM to distance itself from promoting their is continuity between Macedonians of antiquity and Macedonians of today and to insistently preprend "North" to every reference to the country.
3: The style guide of China Global Television Network prescribes calling the country the capital of which is Pyongyang, DPRK, but the one with the capital Seoul, South Korea. Strangely inconsistent.
I hope this sort of things really takes off and we have to learn Chinese characters so we can correctly refer to China as 中国. Failing that, we should at least have the Basic Decency™ to refer to it by its rightful name: "The Middle Kingdom".
Another fun example of this is the Mormon Church, which gets persnickety when you fail to refer to it as the Jesus Christ Church of Latter Day Saints. As you see, they are a typical Christian denomination like any other.
I think Scott's strategy of surrendering when 70% of people use the new name is a decent way of going about things, but I'd personally fight a little longer, say to 90%. You may call it Myanmar, but it will always be Burma to me.
Now that you mention it, it is a bit odd that we still use the Roman slur for Deutschland. I guess when you lose two world wars to the almighty Anglo nobody cares about your culture.
Another factor is that "Deutschland" not being the homeland of the Dutch would be incredibly confusing. Even more than it already is.
It's must less egregious then cases like Turkey or Thailand. At least the Dutch came from Deutschland and the Deutsch are still almost entirely descended from those original people.
More options
Context Copy link
Is it really any more confusing than Slovakia and Slovenia?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link