site banner
PaperclipPerfector  7mo ago (text post)   27763 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 18, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I am sure that all of that is generally true (although there are certainly plenty of defenses to extradition in Canada. It is not enough to simply demonstrate that the person has been charged with a serious crime). My only point was that the fact that Interpol has issued an arrest warrant does not, in and of itself, necessarily mean anything.

The interpol warrant is not dispositive here -- the point is that if India wanted him back, it's odd that this hasn't been going through the normal channels for extradition -- yes that is rejected sometimes, but usually countries will at least go through the process unless Foreign Affairs has already told them 'nah, bro' through backchannels. We do have a treaty, you can read it if you want: https://treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=101286

"Bombing a movie theatre" is normally a thing that is not subject to the various loopholes in extradition treaties, and the Interpol warrant indicates that India has at least enough evidence to make a plausible case. I'm wondering why they didn't pursue it.

The interpol warrant is not dispositive here

I didn't say it was.

it's odd that this hasn't been going through the normal channels for extradition

How do you know it hasn't? This indicates that Indian authorities did not seek extradition until August of 2022. If that is correct, obviously proceeding would not have concluded by the time of his killing in June.

Bombing a movie theatre" is normally a thing that is not subject to the various loopholes in extradition treaties

Says who? Do you think the rule is that in order for a foreign country to avoid the protections afforded to Canadian citizens, all it has to do is allege a serious crime? Are Canadians morons?

Are Canadians morons?

Are you? Interpol doesn't give out warrants on a bare allegation, and neither does Canada extradite on that basis -- sometimes we refuse to extradite for minor charges, or things that would not be crimes in Canada -- bombing a movie theatre is not those, that's the point. The recent extradition looks like it's related to more recent crimes -- but even so, it's been over a year with no action -- it all seems a bit strange.

What even is your point here?

Interpol doesn't give out warrants on a bare allegation,

  1. "A Red Notice is NOT an arrest warrant and is NOT based on any INTERPOL investigation"
  2. I was referring to an allegation by India, not Interpol

sometimes we refuse to extradite for minor charges, or things that would not be crimes in Canada -- bombing a movie theatre is not those, that's the point.

No, the point is that there are other causes for denial of extradition, including, most importantly, the severity of the sentence faced by the person whose extradition is being sought. In particular, Canada will not extradite a person if that person faces the death penalty if convicted.

More specifically, the point is that your claim that Canada will ignore the protections provided its citizens if another country simply files super-serious charges, especially given the abuses I note above re abuse of Interpol red notices.

but even so, it's been over a year with no action

  1. How do you know that there has been no action? Do you have any idea how long extraditions usually take? Did the Indian government ever actually file a formal request for extradition? If so, when? Because the article I linked to stated only that local authorities in Punjab were seeking extradition, but of course the treaty says, "The request for extradition shall be made through diplomatic channels," so that means it has to be made by the Indian federal govt, not the local govt.
  2. One reason it has been "over a year with no action" is that he has been dead since June. And, let's take a look at a famous recent Canadian extradition case: That of Meng Wanzhou. That Wikipedia page says that it took more than a year between the receipt of the extradition request in Dec of 2018 and the start of the first phase of the extradition hearing in January of 2020. So, where is your evidence that 10 months with "no [public] action" is

You didn't answer the question.

I stated my point very clearly, twice:

  1. "The Interpol reference might not mean much. There has apparently been quite a bit of abuse of Interpol procedures on the part of authoritarian governments in recent years."
  2. "My only point was that the fact that Interpol has issued an arrest warrant does not, in and of itself, necessarily mean anything."

OK, so all I'm saying that the Interpol Red-thingee means is that India feels it has enough evidence to charge this guy if he shows up back in India -- which is also normally enough to have a poke at extradition proceedings. (which may or may not succeed)

So if India wants this guy enough to order a hit, it seems weird that they wouldn't have tried a little harder to extradite him first. Unless Canada told them "you can try but we will say no".

(BTW one of the most consistently annoying aspects of conversations with you is your tendency to veer off the main point to nitpick things like calling an Interpol Red Listing (or whatever they call it) a warrant -- if you are going to do that you should at least take pains not to refer to it that way yourself at other times)

@jkf If you find @Gdanning annoying you should either not engage, or engage in a non-antagonistic manner.

Gdanning made the antagonistic comment about Canadians, but otherwise backed off and only addressed points about the argument.

@jkf you were antagonistic multiple times in a row, despite no escalation from gdanning. Consider this a warning.

More comments

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats