The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:
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I've decided to leave The Motte. Anybody who wants to know why can discern the shape of it if they want to. You can think poorly of me for it if you'd like. This isn't really a change from the present- I haven't been active since the switch. More I'd always thought I would reengage here at some point, and now I know I will not, so it's time to take the steps for someone who knows they're moving on.
Thank you, Motte, for helping me hone my rhetorical skills and become better at expressing myself. I will always have very fond memories of this community, even if the time has come for me to be done.
I really don't get why people are so prissy about downvotes when they mean fuck all here. We don't even have a karma system.
Sure it's unpleasant to find out people dislike your opinions, but anyone who can't take such minimal negative feedback probably isn't the best fit here. Either way, it's still a shame to see a regular leave, so farewell.
In Song's defense, did she mention anything about downvotes?
And hell I don't even check my scores unless I get replied 24 hours later. Then again I'm somehow pretty popular around here so... brushes imaginary dirt off shoulder
I did mention downvotes. But it was evidence for something I was unhappy with, not the terminal goal.
The end of it, really, is that I don't want to be somewhere where apologetics for sexually harassing women is really popular, my protest against it gets no good faith engagement at all, and my protest gets treated as though it were bad faith itself when it absolutely is not. I would have been able to tolerate apologetics for sexually harassing women, but people treating my protest with respect and replying in good faith. I can work with that. But that's not this place, so I'm out. There's no reason for me to be here if people are not going to treat my arguments or me with respect.
@self_made_human too, as this is in part a reply to you, too.
Look, I've spoken to another woman who used to be a member of the Motte, and she also left because of the misogyny. You might decide it's the cost of an open discussion forum, or it's "not really that bad". But it is that bad to us*, and the cost of letting bad faith misogyny run free is the women who otherwise would have enriched this place.
I think it's telling that I literally don't think I'm being treated like a psychological equal and rational agent, and the response from you guys is, "cost of doing business in any space where saying negative things about women isn't a Thought Crime." This has nothing to do with saying negative things about women, and everything about being treated as a person on equal terms with any of you men. This kind of treatment is dehumanizing.
@ZorbaTHut may as well tag you too since this is your place, and I think this is worth you knowing about.
I don't need any sort of reply or justification from any of you, and I certainly don't expect any action. Just wanted to make sure my position was absolutely clear.
*to be clear "that bad" is as much the bad faith nature of the misogyny as the misogyny itself. It's one thing to engage with a misogynistic man when he's really listening. It's another entirely when he tuned you out before you opened your mouth because you're a woman, therefore your beliefs are de-facto wrong. My impression here is absolutely the later, and has been for a LONG time. A woman cannot work with that. There's literally no way to engage with that man in a productive and mutual way. There's nothing to do except walk away.
Look Tyrian I really truly feel for you here, and trust me I wish this place was less misogynistic too. I regularly fight against the posters that shout "ALL WOMEN ARE EVIL" and try to provide more nuance. I do wish you would stay and present the feminine perspective.
But I have to say - what you're experiencing is what it's like to be a man trying to discuss anything in the mainstream discourse nowadays. It might be cliche to say it, but again the reason so much misogyny erupts in forums like this is that if you are a man trying to talk about your issues in the modern world, you get absolutely eviscerated by most folks. Other men call you weak if you try to talk about emotions or problems, women call you privileged and basically tell you to suck it up because women have it worse.
Things are moving in the right direction I think with more mens' issues becoming talked about, but growing up as a young man in the 90s and 2000s was absolutely brutal for a variety of reasons. I know women have issues too, but at least women can feel at home in their culture complaining about their problems and the other sex. Men do not have that luxury.
So when I respond with things like:
What I'm trying to get across is that yes, it's awful that there is misogyny in this place and women are treated as less than equal. Frankly in my personal opinion, I think users like you and @2rafa are some of the most quality contributors we have.
At the same time though, I can't help but empathize with the angry young men that come here and spew their venom. I was in their place a decade ago, and it's not a pretty place to be in. When you're suffering terribly, and you can't find any sort of comfort or even basic recognition that your suffering is valid, it makes sense that you lash out. Especially when the only groups that will give you the time of day espouse that type of rhetoric.
I get that you're leaving, but I hope that you can understand the type of vitriol you've been subjected to here isn't about you in particular. It's about young men dealing with massive emotional issues who haven't had the ability, compassion, or grace to overcome them. That's partly on them, but it's on our society too and especially the women that ridicule and demean young men.
Anyway, I know you don't particularly want or care for my justifications, but I hope any other women reading this and thinking about leaving see that there are at least some posters here that don't appreciate the misogyny either, and are trying to soften the harsh edges.
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The Motte is a poorer place without posters like yourself providing a measure of counterbalance to the not uncommon tendency around here towards doompilled paranoia.
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